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I recently acquired a bottle of Old Kentucky Tavern BiB from the mid 50's. This was probably made by Glenmore. Did anyone ever taste this stuff? Chuck Cowdery said it will propably be good whiskey.
Joe

Joe,
Kentucky Tavern was the flagship brand for Glenmore since 1900 when James Thompson and Brother bought the Glenmore Distillery in Owensboro, Ky. I always enjoyed Kentucky Tavern myself. I would say you have an under-rated find on your hands. Taste it and let us have a review of your impressions.

Mike Veach

I just tasted this stuff. It is incredible. Put into the bottle in the Fall of 1949, bottled in 1955 at 100 proof. Once again just oodles and oodles of fruit with almost no alcohol burn and one of the longest finishes of any bourbon I've tasted. I'm really becoming a devoted fan of old whiskey. The modern bourbons just can't hold a candle to stuff like this.
Joe

Joe,
I have always sung the praises of the old distilling methods and old bourbons. I still don't understand why some of the distillers don't make a product based upon these methods. It would cost more, but I think the consumers would still buy it for the excellent flavor.

Kentucky Tavern was an excellent bourbon in the time period of your bottle. It made the Thompson family rich (with some help from Yellowstone and Old Thompson blended whiskey). I always found the flavor to be rich and fruity with a hint of sweet spice and oak. There was an 8 year old Version of Kentucky Tavern that I think is even better.

Mike Veach

I agree with Mike, we used to get this in Toronto in the early 80's and it was great, just as he described. Fruitiness, richness and lack of burn seem to have been rubbed out of modern whiskey.

Gary

Gary,
I was looking at a price list from 1960 from the Union League Club of Chicago in the Taylor-Hay collection. Taylor Hay Sr. was the manager of the club for over 30 years. One of the items advertised was some Grommes and Ullrich bourbon that was bottled-in-bond in 1943 at 8 years old and members could purchase it for $5.20 a 4/5 quart bottle. Even in 1960 people were looking for some premium whiskey made the old way.
Mike Veach

Wow. Maybe it's still there - or replaced by a 1960 BIB.


Gary

Mike, I am just curious. Was there any beer mentioned on the drinks list? What types and prices? I am interested both in local and imported beers. (If possible). Thanks!

Gary

Gary,
Sorry, no beer. There are some other spirits such as several brands of Scotch and Cognac and even that new bourbon on the market, the one with the red wax seal, something called Maker's Mark.

It is interesting to look at at 1960's price lists.

Mike Veach

Joe,
Great Review of the Old Kentucky Tavern. There were some great bourbons made in Owensboro. I just wish Charles Medley had the money to fire up his distillery again. He made some great whiskey in his day. While tasting some old Ezra Brooks from Charles's days (mid 1980's) of owning the brand, the comment that caught my ear was from Chuckmick who said it has a very Stitzel-Weller nose. That was not suprising since Charles always said they used the same yeast. If you get a chance to purchse some old Ezra Brooks or Medley Bros. bourbon, do so. You will not regret it.

Mike Veach

Hey Joe! Thanks for underscoring the point of view that has been my trademark since I got here! I don't want to disappoint, but I'm afraid I've come to the conclusion that no one will ever make bourbon the way they used to again, because it's no longer legal to do it. I don't know what changed in the mid-sixties or early seventies (although I'm working on it), but something did. Mike Veach thinks it was taxes, and he might be right. Others think it was when the old first-growth forests ran out and the wood changed, or the federal code of regulations allowed higher distilling proofs, or engineered enzymes began replacing natural yeasts, or something else; it's not clear (at least to me) yet. But whatever it was, the whiskey changed dramatically, and you've described a perfect example of that. The sad part is that, no matter how advantageous it might be for distillers to make some of their whiskey "the old way" and market it to us folks who'd gladly pay the extra cost, I'm afraid they just can't do that anymore.

John,
I am not so sure that they could not reproduce it if they wanted to, but the expense would be great. They would have to make their own yeast, which some still do. They would have to use more barley and no enzymes, which some still do. They would have to distill at a lower proof and put it into the barrel at a lower proof. The lower proof should be less than 110 and the closer to 100 proof the better.

This would use more barrels and cost more, but it would still be radically cheaper than French Oak which seems to be a failure in my opinion. The whiskey would have more of those fruity flavors from the yeast and grain flavors that are hard to find in most bourbons today. The barrel would have less influence on the flavor, but what influence it had would be more sweet caramel and vanilla tones and less dry tanic wood tones, because the whiskey would not have to be over aged to give it some flavor.

Mike Veach

This is opinion territory, so I'm not disagreeing with anybody, but I think it's mostly the wood and the closest thing I've had to the flavor of these whiskeys I'm hankering for from something made recently is that French Oak from BT. Especially if that stuff got ten years or more on it, I think you'd have something.

What is it I'm looking for? It's that Wintergreen, some people call it Teaberry flavor.

Chuck,
For me it is not the mint flavors, but the fruit flavors that are more prominate in the older whiskeys. I would like some of the I W Harper made in 1937 and bottled in 42 that was rich in a citrus flavor and caramels. I also found this flavor in some Greenbrier bourbon from prohibition that we tasted at UD. It was only about 8yo bourbon (compared to the 12 or 13 yo that you usually find in prohibition whiskey) and not completely dominated by the wood flavors. I think the fruit comes through better with lower distillation and barrel proofs.

Mike Veach

All excellent comments. Could be the wood because that French Limousin is very old, the staves made for cognac must be many decades old and are seasoned outdoors for 3 years or more. So if it is giving old time tastes that is part of it anyway. But entry proof and distilling out proof are important too. Not all old-style bourbon was fruity by the way. I think maybe for that which was, the cypress then was not technically as clean as today and this imparted some complex flavors that have been lost.

Gary