Woeful Display of Bourbon Ignorance

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Woeful Display of Bourbon Ignorance

Unread postby scratchline » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:46 pm

Ignorance, may be too strong a word, but this weekend I was part of a bourbon event in NYC and while good food and spirits were served, the bourbon information offered was grossly inadequate. I think the presenter was more familiar with the world of wine or mixed drinks but still.

One dubious tidbit of info was the response he gave when asked how many bottles were in a barrel. "Depends on the size of the barrel." And then a lengthy discussion of how barrel size effects the way the wood and whiskey interact. I don't know if there is, in fact, variance in the size of barrels, certainly I've never heard anything about it, but to say NOTHING about the angel share and loss of liquid as the whiskey ages, come on. Especially when we're tasting Hirsch 16 and Pappy 20.

Another thing I found indefensible was the info sheet he provided identified Blanton's as an Ancient Age product. I don't know, maybe the "official" name of the distillery is Ancient Age, but I toured the Buffalo Trace distillery and the fact that the words "Buffalo" and "Trace" were not even mentioned all night, given their current position in the market, is very bad.

There were other lapses but those were the ones that stand out most. I couldn't tell how many folks there had significant bourbon experience. It seemed that many were novices but that almost makes it worse, since people were there to learn and I think they got a pretty lousy education.

Still the bourbon was fine and the food was good and the guy was nice. I just couldn't help imagining how terrific it would have been if a real bourbon enthusiast had been leading the session. Folks would have streamed out of there with a full shopping list, eager to share what they had learned with others.

I realize I've been spoiled in the past year by the knowledge that has been shared on this board by so many folks here. I won't even begin to name names since it's inevitable that I'll leave someone out, but at that tasting it was really brought home to me what a rare resource this is and how much I've learned here.

Thanks to all. And forgive the rant.

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Interesting

Unread postby kystraightbourbon » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:32 pm

I sure hope it's not like that in Chicago next year. I tentatively plan on attending that one.

That's a real shame. People are always very interested to learn about bourbon when they hear it's a hobby of mine. I'm always surprised at how little they know and yet how interested in it they become. Granted, I haven't turned out a slew of bourbon drinkers, but at least they leave my presence better educated.

Just be glad for places like this.
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Unread postby cowdery » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:08 am

The barrel stuff is pretty funny. American whiskey barrels are a standard 53 gallons.

As for Ancient Age, I just learned recently that the "company" that "owns" the Blanton's brand is still called Ancient Age. This "company" (the quotes are because it exists on paper only) is owned, either in whole or in part, by Takara Shuzo, a Japanese company. Sazerac, of course, owns the distillery, which is called Buffalo Trace, and makes Blanton's and also distributes it in the USA, but they don't own the brand.

At any event, your point that the presenter was not well informed probably is correct.

These "festivals" are very clever as a business proposition. The promoter provides the venue and everything the venue provides, such as food, non-alcoholic drinks, and the service staff. The booze companies provide everything else: the booths, the booze, the booth personnel, all of the seminar presenters, and also pay for the privelege.

When you consider how little is actually paid for by the promoter, you can see that these events are quite profitable.
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Unread postby scratchline » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:30 am

Chuck, the reference sheet reads, "1865 Benjamin Blanton starting distilling whiskey in Leestown, Kentucky. Today, the distillery is known as Ancient Age."

Very interesting that the Blanton name is owned by Ancient Age and the Japanese company. I would have said Sazerac. Glad I kept my mouth shut. Except to taste the bourbons, that is.

This really wasn't a festival event. It was promoted as a "salon" by a rather toney NY restaurant. Food and poetry were also provided. What quickly became clear, however, was that the bourbon was the star of the evening. Folks in attendance were eager to learn about whiskey.

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Unread postby Brewer » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:09 am

Chuck,

Prior to becoming known as Buffalo Trace Distillery, wasn't the previous name Ancient Age Distillery?
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Unread postby bourbonv » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:16 am

Evidently there is very little co-operation between Ancient Age and Buffalo Trace. I have had the Blanton's Brand Manager contact me for images of Albert Blanton - evidently he did not want to go to Buffalo Trace for the use of the images.
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Unread postby dgonano » Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:26 pm

Evidently Shuzo purchased Ancient Age in 1992-see Mike V's timeline.

The seller apparently was a New York Venture group who purchased the

brands and distillery in the 1980's.

On the BT website their timeline shows the Goldring family (Sazerac)

purchasing the

"distillery" in 1992. For a period it was called Leestown distillery and in

1999 the name was changed to Buffalo Trace. Along the way Sazerac

purchased a few brands and created some new ones.

My question is about Shuzo....along with the brands did he also acquire

the distillery and shortly sell to

Goldring?...or as part of two transactions did he acquire just the brands

with Goldring purchasing the distillery?

Does Shuzo also own the Ancient Age brand and others or just Blantons?
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Unread postby cowdery » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:48 pm

Ferdie Falk and some other investors bought the distillery from Schenley and also the Ancient Age brand. They created the Blanton's brand specifically for Takara Shuzo. The exact financial participation of Takara Shuzo is hazy but they seem to have been in the background ever since the Ferdie Falk era, primarily to ensure the supply of Blanton's. I assume they also own the Ancient Age brand. At this point, I think their relationship to Buffalo Trace is primarily as a customer, but Buffalo Trace does distribute Blanton's and Ancient Age in the USA on their behalf.

Buffalo Trace is owned by Sazerac, which is owned by the Goldring family. The Goldrings also own several large distributorships in Louisiana and Texas.

Altough everyone used to call the distillery Ancient Age, because that was the label on the signs and the water tower, I have been told that its official name was something else, though I'm not sure what.

Sazerac got into American whiskey big time when it bought the Benchmark and Eagle Rare brands from Seagrams. Originally, it partnered with Heaven Hill. It got ugly when they acquired the Frankfort distillery and ended their relationship with Heaven Hill.
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Unread postby doubleblank » Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:39 pm

The Goldrings and the Blocks (from San Antonio, my hometown) formed partnerships and alliances on the distribution side beginning in the early '90's. They have now rolled up all their distribution assets into a company called Republic Beverage which operates in 10 states last time I counted. Republic is a major player here in Texas and have helped facilitate the several barrel purchases I have participated in. The Sazerac Company is not a part of Republic.

I have wondered for a long time about the Goldrings' ownership position in both the production of alcohol (Sazerac) and its distribution (Republic).....a position I have been told is unlawful. I'm certain there are ways to "game" the system so that the ownership of various entities doesn't conflict with the law.

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Unread postby TNbourbon » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:59 pm

Angling off topic here, but in rummaging around Republic's website, I note it purchased Horizon Wine & Spirits in KY recently. Horizon also is present in Tennessee, and while the ownership/regulatory structure differed, it is/was part of the same group that included Horizon's KY operation. However, Republic makes no mention of an entry into Tennessee, nor of the TN operation being stripped off from Horizon's KY distribution.
I'm highly doubtful that the powers that be here would allow Republic into Tennessee (our liquor oligarchs aren't big on competition), but I hadn't heard anything of the Horizon deal before now.
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Unread postby cowdery » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:01 pm

For the uninitiated, the "3-tier system" of alcohol production and sales, required by law, says that producers, distributors and retailers must all be separate entities, with no cross-over.

However...

I've discussed this issue with a family (not one of the ones mentioned here) that is both a producer and distributor. Basically, it's just different members of the family in the different businesses, with no cross-ownership. I'm the producer, my brother is the distributor. All legal. It's that simple.
Last edited by cowdery on Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby EllenJ » Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:08 am

cowdery wrote:... . Altough everyone used to call the distillery Ancient Age, because that was the label on the signs and the water tower, I have been told that its official name was something else, though I'm not sure what.

I think it was "Age International"

Thanks for the info about how Sazerac became involved. I'd like to know more about how Heaven Hill figured into the story... sounds like another Bourbon Country Reader exclusive to me.

One interesting sideline is that the original Elmer T. Lee bottles (the single barrel and also the 107 proof) state the distillery as Buffalo Trace. Did Elmer have more than merely an employee relationship with the Leestown distillery (as it was also known then) and their brands?
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Unread postby Catahoula » Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:54 pm

As mentioned HH partnered with Sazerac in the Seagram's purchase. When Sazerac (alone) under Peter Bordeaux bought the Ancient Age Distillery in 1992 they renamed it The Leestown Distillery. When Mark Brown was brought back from BF to replace Peter more emphasis was placed on the distillery, because Mark saw huge unrealized potential in it.

Out of that came a plan for the distillery and the name change to Buffalo Trace, capturing a bit of true history relating to the site. BT the brand was developed as the flagship brand for the distillery along with a genuine commitment to produce the finest bourbon in the world.

I was privileged to participate in the process of researching and developing the new identity for the distillery. My company, SPAR, Inc., designed the logo and the Buffalo Trace package (as well as most or their other packages). We are also owned by Bill Goldring.

If you saw the distillery in the early 90's and again today you would immediately be struck by the investment made in the place. The products speak for themselves.

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Unread postby cowdery » Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:22 am

As for the Sazerac/HH split, I don't know a lot of details, but there was definitely bad blood between Max Shapira, president of HH, and Peter Bordeaux and Mark Brown. Probably no small part of it had to do with the similarity between the two companies. I think Max may have perceived it as Sazerac "going to school" on him, then pulling out and becoming a competitor.

An aspect of it with which I was familiar was with regard to Fessel, Siegfried and Moeller, a Louisville advertising agency. I worked there for a few years in the late 70s before going to another local agency, but Louisville is a small town as far as its advertising community and I stayed in touch. FS&M had been HH's agency for a long time and began to do work for Sazerac when the two were cooperating. When the split came, the owners of FS&M had to make a choice and although they had a longer relationship with HH, Sazerac was both immediately and potentially a much bigger client, so FS&M went with them.

I'm sure that was a small part of the overall dispute, but it was part of it. In other words, Sazerac "stole" HH's advertising agency.

Didn't Peter Bordeaux himself have an advertising background? I seem to recall that he ran the largest ad agency in New Orleans prior to joining Sazerac.
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Unread postby Catahoula » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:19 am

FS&M made a really bad call on that one. There was far more ad revenue potential at HH than Sazerac.

Peter never worked for an ad agency as I recall. Prior to being recruited by Bill Goldring he held a position at Tulane relating to funding - not sure what it was called.

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