White Dog ? ?

[BourbonBalls]

Then, just for the sake of thinking this thru further, if Everclear were barreled and aged, would we have a type of bourbon and/or whiskey after those 6, 8, or 10 years?

[bourbonv]

Aged Everclear would be aged Vodka. It is distilled too high proof for it to be a whiskey.

[EllenJ]

One thing that can be confusing about liquor proof is that it's really two different things.

When the whiskey is being BOTTLED, the proof is typically adjusted by dilution with water. The more the proof is lowered, the weaker the flavor. This is probably what you're thinking of.

But when the whiskey is being DISTILLED, proof is something very different. In that case, lowering the proof of the raw whiskey INCREASES the flavor. This is because alcohol itself has no flavor, and the closer you get to 100% (95% - 190 proof - is the practical limit outside of a laboratory), the less flavor. All of the flavor that we identify with "bourbon" or "rye" (or rum, or tequila for that matter; it's not just whiskey) comes from non-alcohol components (called congeners). In the United States, whiskey, by law, must be distilled at less than 190 proof; specific-grain whiskeys such as bourbon, rye, or corn whiskey at no higher than 160 proof, and in practice most is produced at around 140 or so. That ensures that a product labeled as "whiskey" will include the elements that give whiskey its typical flavor. The lower the proof, the more of those flavor congeners will be included in the raw whiskey.

There's also another step in between distilling and bottling where a selection needs to be made of what proof to use. The same laws that affect the quality of the distillate also decree that specific-grain whiskey must be stored in an oak container at not more than 125 proof. In practice, most distilleries aim for that limit, as the higher the storage proof the fewer barrels will be needed. Corporate accountants love that sort of thing. In any event, you can see that the 140-160 proof white dog will need a significant addition of water to get under the limit. That also affects the flavor, because much less dilution is required to reduce 140 (or less) proof to 125 than if the raw whiskey were at 160. And even if the barest trace of flavor did, somehow, manage to come through into whiskey distilled at, say, 185 proof, it would be lost by the time all the water needed to dilute that to 125 was added. (That's really a moot point, though, because although there is a category for such a product - it's called "light whiskey" - no one currently makes any, except possibly as a blending ingredient).

You could put GNS, diluted to 125 proof, into barrels and age it (although you won't be able to label it as whiskey). People have done so, and some even like it. I suppose. The resulting liquor will have no grain flavor at all, of course, so whatever flavor you get will come solely from the wood. It's a little like intentionally running both of your stereo speakers off of one channel -- It may sound "balanced" to you, since you do get equal volume from both speakers, but half the music is missing!

[gillmang]

Thanks for all these notes. It would be interesting to take one ounce of Everclear, add one ounce of any (decent) water, and 5 ounces orange juice.

Then, take 2 ounces Grey Goose, add 5 ounces orange juice.

Will the two taste the same?

I don't think so, although I don't claim many would notice especially in a bar setting.

As regards proof, I agree with you John, but while alcohol has no flavour neither does distilled water. The congener content of 190 proof distillate is determined by how efficient the process used is to strip not just ethanol but the congeners from the mash or wash. Some 190 proof can have a detectable odour. Since vodka by law cannot, either it must be processed further or it cannot be sold as vodka. Some columns have numerous plates at which fusel oils and higher alcohols can be drawn off (purged in distillery-speak). Some have rectification or concentration columns or heads where this is achieved.

Congeners whose boiling point is below or similar to that of alcohol's will go over with the alcohol and some will whose boiling point is higher because volatilised wash is always a mix of alcohol and some water. So it is a question of boiling off or removing somehow the congeners and there are different ways to do that, and sometimes you need to reverse the normal volatility of these congeners to get them out completely, which is what extractive distillation does. My point is, making a 190 proof spirit in and of itself does not solve the problem. I suspect some GNS brought in to a plant to sell as vodka, while technically (for law purposes) neutral, has some faint flavor or a certain texture deemed not proper for vodka or fine vodka and therefore this is subjected to further distillations or filterings to further cleanse the spirit.

Gary

[gillmang]

Michael (Hack), I was looking at the Canadian Mist website (easy to find by a Google search). They distill evidently to a very high proof, like Everclear or not far under it but over 190 proof. The site does not mention addition to the barreled spirit (or aged whisky) of a low proof corn or rye spirit (i.e., basically bourbon or rye). Most Canadian producers add some to give flavor to the aged high proof spirit other than what wood gives it. Assuming Canadian Mist does not use low proof spirit to flavor its aged high proof, that product is what aging GNS tastes like. And it isn't bad, it is mild-tasting but nice and rounded. Oak gives much of the flavour, and perhaps all. But I wonder too about the casks they use, Canadian Mist is owned by B-F. Maybe B-F sends up freshly used bourbon or JD barrels, or maybe Mist even uses new charred barrels. Either way, if that is done, that would give additional flavor. If Mist uses neutral-flavor barrels (maybe they were bourbon barrels once, say, but used over and over to hold aging Mist), the effect of the keg would be minimal and the whisky would taste like oaky vodka I guess. But I have to think the type of barrel used influences the flavor. Possibly too at Canadian Mist they add some real bourbon to it before bottling as a flavoring element, which is an old Canadian practice.

Mike V. would Chris Morris give you that kind of info? Not sure if it is considered trade property or not.

Gary

[cowdery]

I haven't looked at the Mist web site, but I have no reason to believe it is made any differently than any other Canadian. Your point is valid. Especially with the least expensive Canadian whiskies, what you have is essentially aged GNS, hence the pejorative nickname "brown vodka."

[gillmang]

Chuck, some sites state that low-proof spirit is added (e.g., CC's site does, noting the marrying at barreling stage). Other sites do not mention it. I think Alberta Distillers, whose site refers to the use of all-rye grist, does not mention addition of low-proof spirit, but in fact this is done. An article was written on the distillery by another whiskey writer, Lew Bryson, in which this was mentioned. So the fact that some sites do not mention it does not mean it isn't done. Canadian Mist has a neat flow chart of their process though, it is well worth reading.

Gary

[BourbonBalls]

Thanks for the info guys.....My tasting this weekend will be better for it!

One question about Georgia Moon: If I use it as a white dog example, does anyone know at what proof it is distilled at? Its bottled (jarred!) at 80 proof so it, of course, won't have the white dog "kick" but I assume it will retain the white dog "flavor"

[gillmang]

Just one more point on GNS and vodka. The definitions in the standards of identity make it clear that anything distilled at 190 proof or over is neutral spirits. That does not make GNS vodka per se. The separate definition of vodka states it is neutral spirits "so distilled" which, or "after distillation" because e.g., of charcoal treatments, results in a beverage of no distinctive odor, aroma, character, taste. In other words, if the GNS is pure enough when received at the door of our friendly vodka merchandiser, sure it can go out as vodka. But if it has too much discernible odour or taste, it can't go out - as vodka.

U.S. and Canadian commercial producers of grain neutral spirits have high standards I believe. I know in the U.S. each sets his own standards for residual content of esters, acids, aldehydes, propanols, etc. In fact, each modern producer may well make a bulk product that also meets the vodka definition. But it is not automatic that whatever is 190 proof or over will be vodka. Even very high-grade GNS contains detectable amounts of the congeners mentioned, say 5 PPM of aldehydes. Can these be "tasted" at such tiny concentrations? I don't know, all I know is many vodka makers subject the purchased GNS to further treatments to remove even such trace amounts of congener. I am not sure if they are doing that for legal reasons (to ensure the product is legally vodka) or for commercial reasons, to ensure the consumer finds nothing objectionable in the beverage or as an extra selling point (no dount this occurs a lot).

But anyway the point being, distillation to 190 proof does not automatically mean its congener content is low.

Gary

[Bourbon Joe]

Then, just for the sake of thinking this thru further, if Everclear were barreled and aged, would we have a type of bourbon and/or whiskey after those 6, 8, or 10 years?

I think you would have amber colored high proof Vodka. I also think it's taste would be alcohol and wood in that order. Doesn't sound very palatable to me.
Joe

[cowdery]

Thanks for the info guys.....My tasting this weekend will be better for it!

One question about Georgia Moon: If I use it as a white dog example, does anyone know at what proof it is distilled at? Its bottled (jarred!) at 80 proof so it, of course, won't have the white dog "kick" but I assume it will retain the white dog "flavor"

It probably comes off the still in the neighborhood of 140 proof. By law, it can't be above 160.

[EllenJ]

Michael,
For demonstration purposes, you could probably get away with mixing some Everclear with the 80-proof Georgia Moon. It won't be EXACTLY like bourbon white dog, which would be noticeably more flavorful, but it would have the "kick" that people associate with high-alcohol distillates. If you can get the 100-proof version you probably won't even need to do that, since its unaged "burn" will take care of that for you and probably be more than enough to demonstrate your point. Craft corn whiskey distillers aim for 100 proof as their distillation output anyway, so that would be more realistic than the commercial 140 that Chuck mentioned for the likes of Georgia Moon. Of course, the "moonshiners'" 100-proof would be richer-tasting because the Georgia Moon is diluted down to that level while the 'shine comes off the still that way. But it's still a good demo and a great idea for your tasting presentation.

[BourbonBalls]

Thanks to everyone for their input.....

I decided to do the tasting this weekend by starting with whitedog only because is dramatically demonstrates to bourbon newbies, that what comes after that, is all from the barrel. Color, taste, etc.

It also, I believe helps them to have a reference for what is young whiskey they will be tasting and how far the Stagg 15 year old I'll be serving is from the way it started.

My point to them will be demonstrating how pure a drink bourbon is, and how nothing is added except barrel aging. I find it surprising over the years that many people didnt know that the spirit started out clear (white) and the barrel gives it its color / flavor.

How do you turn a Dog into a Stagg? Put it in a barrel!

Thanks again for everyone.

[bourbonv]

Michael,
How did the tasting go?

[BourbonBalls]

Michael,
How did the tasting go?

Mike...the tasting went quite well.....Those attending were not experienced bourbon drinkers and came with little bourbon knowledge so the tasting was kind of a "Bourbon 101" tasting/education. Everyone just wanted to know more and more about bourbon.

The selection of bourbons were really limited to what is available here in California. Altho I did have some Buffalo Trace I brought from KY. The available bourbons included, among others: Weller 12 year old, (for wheat) Old Grand Dad and Bulliet (for high rye), Pappy VanWinkle 20 year old, George T Stagg 141 proof. I had a total of 10 bourbons. I know that 10 is a lot for a tasting...but those who wanted, had a small sample of each...I just wanted to make available a good range.

Your suggestion of Georgia Moon "whilte dog" was perfect for this group as a couple of them didnt even know that bourbon started out clear and got its color from the barrel! I even included a standard bottle of Jim Beam white label as a starter just to demonstrate how flavorless bourbon can be at 80 proof and only 4 years away from whitedog.

After the Beam I felt I had to include, (only for "instructional" purposes tho!) Basil Haydens. This was only to illustrate that flavor comes from both proof and barrel. So the BH was an 80 proof but twice as old. This seemed to strike an understanding chord with everyone as we progressed upward in both proof and age. Ending with the Stagg.

I also pointed everyone toward BE.com if they REALLY wanted to get more educated about bourbon!

I had both young and old there, and the common thread was wanting to learn more and taste something really different apart from the Scotch, Vodka and mixers.

We had everything neat with a drop or two of water with the Stagg proofed down to about 100 proof after the first full-proof taste. All were served in Glenciarn glasses. I'll try and post some pics here.

I sure envy what can be gotten in KY and not here, but overall I had a pretty good selection for the group.

OPEN INVITATION: Anyone, if you get to California, come by and have a pour! I can't single-handly make wine country, bourbon country!

Thanks again to everyone for the whitedog info.