old potrero, anchor

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Unread postby Brewer » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:48 am

EllenJ wrote:Mike, hopefully this won't offend too many others, but the fact is, the people who don't appreciate Old Potrero often are people who simply don't like rye whisky. I personally love Van Winkle Family Reserve, but the truth is that real rye doesn't taste like that. Thank you for noticing!


Ellen,

I'm not offended, I just think you're wrong. I don't like OP, but I do love many ryes...VW, Saz, Rittenhouse, Classic Cask, to name a few. Regarding your statement that "real rye doesn't taste like that" in reference to VWFR, please elaborate. What does that mean? :?:
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Unread postby gillmang » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:16 pm

I have to agree with Bob here. (BTW is that Linda writing from ellenjaye? If so, hi Linda!) . I have tasted classic all-rye or high-rye rye whiskeys at Gazebo tastings brought by kindly souls. These included two bottles of Pikesville from the 1960's and one Overholt from around the same time. And I recall Strayed of Ellenjay's 1930's Monticello rye which was very interesting, more estery/fruity than anything else. None of those tasted like Potrero. Lot 40 is all rye and it doesn't taste like Potrero (although there is some connection between them, yes). Alberta Premium is all-rye, including a component of low proof staight rye, and it doesn't taste like Potrero either. I think Potrero is one type of straight rye, a young one that has an unrefined taste, quite intentionally since as we know it was meant to show what some 1700's and 1800's straight rye was like. But in my opinion, a lot of traditional rye was distilled either to a higher proof than Potrero or aged for longer, or both. Those Maryland Pikesvilles had no semi-bourbon taste but they sure didn't have the marked distillery flavors of Potrero. Personally I find it much more interesting (as a concept, historically) than it is to drink.

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Unread postby OscarV » Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:20 am

I have read all the post in this subject.
From what I understand Old Potrero is 100% rye mashbill, and the rye made by the boubon distilleries are at least 51% rye mashbill.
When rye whiskey was made by our founding Fathers, before bourbon, didn't they use 100% rye in their recipe?
Do the bourbon distilleries use more than 51% rye in there mash, the way that they typically use 70% or more of corn for bourbon when 51% corn minimum is the law.
So I guess my question is "what is true rye whiskey?"
Maybe Old Potrero is and they need to tweak it.
And the bourbon distilleries should use a lot more rye in their rye's.

As far as my personal taste goes, I only had Wild Turkey Rye, and I loved it.

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Unread postby gillmang » Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:16 am

I absolutely agree on the current WT rye. I had some just last night. It is one of the finest spirits in America today, at any price. It has a marked rye taste but in a subtle, even elegant interpretation, despite the 100 proof. I don't have the exact spec at hand but I think it has more than 51% rye content. Some Kentucky ryes certainly have more than 51% rye, I think Overholt has around 60%. It is true that Old Potrero is made from 100% rye, all malted I believe.

Samuel M'Harry was an early American distiller. He wrote a book in about 1810 on how whiskey was made. A reprint of the book is available for purchase at http://www.raudins.com. In that book, he indicated whiskey was distilled from varying combinations of rye, corn and barley malt. He said all-rye could be used, or all-corn (plus barley malt for conversion of starches to fermentable sugars, i.e., his rye and corn were used unmalted ). So there was no fixed formula even in Pennsylvania where M'Harry was from. The archeological work done on the George Washington farm distillery shows that rye, corn and barley malt were brought from the farm in proportions roughly corresponding to the mash bill that Overholt is made from today. So, while some whiskey was made only from rye and malt (or maybe malted rye in some cases), much of it from the beginning was a combination of rye, corn and barley malt. Often one grain (corn or rye) was the majority grain and the others the small grains. However again some whiskey always was made from rye only plus again barley malt. The Byrn distillery book also sold at http://www.raudins.com, chronicling whiskey production in the mid-1800's, gives a standard recipe for whiskey as 80% rye grist with the rest barley malt. But Byrn notes rye (by then, it was different earlier) was the cheapest grain and wanted to show whiskey could be made from all-rye to benefit from the greatest economy. M'Harry was concerned with economics too but also with taste, and his preferred combination was 2/3rds corn and 1/3rd rye, pretty close to the modern bourbon spec in fact. As I recall he also approved of a 50/50 combination. So while I greatly respect the Potrero initiative, I believe again it represents the way some whiskey was made in early days, not all. And even within that grain mashbill, some whiskey even in early days was aged longer than a year or two, M'Harry (and Byrn) make this clear. I believe too that even early rye whiskey made from all-rye and aged only a year or two did not, all of it, have the marked "distillery" character of Potrero. Some whiskey would have been multiple-distilled or other treated to rub out some of that taste. It is really interesting to read M'Harry writing in the very early 1800's. It shows that whiskey was not made in only one fashion, that some of it was aged, or rectified in different ways. The work done on the Washington project shows that Washington sold common whiskey as it was called for most of his production (i.e., new white spirit) but he also sold some highly refined, well-aged and/or flavoured whiskey. The common whiskey may have tasted like the Old Potrero rye whiskeys although we can't be sure of this. The aged Washington whiskeys may have tasted like Old Overholt today.

Last point: when asking about rye whiskey, we should recall the vital point that early rye whiskey and this extends into the modern era, was straight whiskey. This means it was not blended with neutral spirit, or flavored, or a high-proof spirit. Moreover, it was and is aged for a few years in wooden barrels, the best of it in new charred oak. In whatever still it was or is produced, genuine rye whiskey is distilled at under 160 proof to retain sufficient body and taste from the grain congeners that a higher disillation proof would remove. The Canadian Alberta Premium is a worthy whisky and has some straight-type whiskey blended in. But it is not a traditional rye whiskey in the American sense. Most of Alberta Premium is distilled out at over 190 proof and has when new a fairly neutral taste (though not completely neutral, and aging imparts a barrel character to it as well). In contrast, Old Potrero is and all the Kentucky ryes are genuine straight whiskeys. The Alberta Premium is a true rye whisky in the Canadian sense however, since the tradition of straight whiskey has been lost in Canada. Except for Forty Creek's whiskies from Ontario which are a kind of bridge between the two types, Alberta Premium is as good as Canada has today together with some others such as Seagram's Limited Edition (which is pretty good, I had some last night too).

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Unread postby Bourbon Joe » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:22 am

gillmang wrote:I absolutely agree on the current WT rye. I had some just last night. It is one of the finest spirits in America today, at any price. It has a marked rye taste but in a subtle, even elegant interpretation, despite the 100 proof.
Gary


Gary,
I agree also. A real gem from WT.
Joe :drink:
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Unread postby OscarV » Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:06 pm

hey gillmang thanks for dropping the knowledge bomb.

I am pleasantlely suprised to learn that 200 years ago there was a variety of whiskeys that you could get. But it does sound like if I was around back then the so called "common whiskey" would only be affordable to me.

I will now make a point of gettting a bottle of Old Overholt, if it was the best back then, I am sure I will appreciate it today.

I did notice that in an earlery post someone said Old Potreo had a metallic taste. If that is the case they should never have released it.

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Unread postby gillmang » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:31 am

Thanks, and I just tried to summarise what many of us here have discussed before. Rye and bourbon in my opinion, when you get into the historical and production details of it, are really two sides of the same coin. As noted too both WT rye and Old Overholt are very nice and also affordable. Some people like Beam rye, I haven't had that in some years. The great thing about rye and bourbon is how much it hasn't really changed since the 1800's. As for the Potrero ryes' particular flavor, many people do like it. I think if they were aged 4-8 years they might taste closer to WT rye but the people who put out Potrero are going for the historical angle. But even they wouldn't claim (I'm quite sure) that it was the only kind of whiskey sold then.

In rye whiskey today, there is maybe not that much choice out there, and what there is is not always easy to find. An option is bourbon with a high rye content. Old Grandad is a good example. Many here like the Heaven Hill bourbons which are traditional in taste including Evan Williams 7 year old straight bourbon. Bulleit is another option (quite rye leaning) but it costs more than the Evan Williams.

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Unread postby aarkwilde » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:36 pm

Anchor has released a new version of their rye that has been aged 11 years. I haven't seen this in the store yet.

Has anyone had a chance to give it a try?

http://www.anchorbrewing.com/about_us/o ... taling.htm
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Unread postby Mike » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:09 pm

Imo go see kin I git 'my' liquor store to order me up a bottle of that 11 YO stuff. They got the Old Potrero for me before, mayhap they can do it again!
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Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:35 pm

Is this the same product they had at the Whisky Magazine tasting in Bardstown about a year and half ago? That was some very good rye whiskey, as I recall. Very nice with a molasses flavor with lots of spice. I thought of Christmas cookies.

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Unread postby aarkwilde » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:59 pm

I just picked up a bottle. It's selling for the same price as the Old Potrero ($60) but the wording on the bottle makes it sound like a one-off. I have no idea if this is actually the case, but the bevmo I got it at only had two bottles. I'll try calling the brewery tomorrow to find out.

I'm going to try to pick up another before I open it, I guess.

For the record, it's 100° and aged 11 years. The Old Potrero I tried was 137° or something insane like that, and I didn't really enjoy it.
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Unread postby gillmang » Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:05 pm

Good catch to find this, thanks. I think what Mike is referring to was 3 or 4 years old (although I wasn't there): this sounds like something quite different. The link indicates it was aged in all used charred oak. So not really a straight whiskey in the modern sense but after all those years I wonder if it absorbed enough charred wood character to approximate say the same whiskey aged half the time in new charred wood. These guys do things in dramatic ways: first whiskey one or two years old, then a little older, then jumping all the way to 11 years. Interesting. I'd love to try it.

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Unread postby bourbonv » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:47 am

Gary,
The Old Potrero I had at the tasting was something that was not readily available and at least 7 years old. I may have mis-heard and it could have been eleven years old. It was a very nice rich amber color with lots of nice barrel tones in the nose.

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Unread postby gillmang » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:10 am

Well thanks for that correction Mike, clearly I misread what you had said earlier.

Seven years would be ideal, especially in new charred barrels.

I think it is good the new version is being released and to me it is overdue!

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Unread postby scratchline » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:23 pm

Very interesting discussion, guys.

Gary, I noticed you didn't include any of the Hirsch Canadian Ryes (8, 10, 12 yr) in your consideration of the Canadian whiskeys.

In your opinion how do they figure into the rye spectrum. I've only had the 8 yr and found it "unusual" to my Americanized rye palate.

Thanks.

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