Still called Bourbon??

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Still called Bourbon??

Unread postby BourbonBalls » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:41 pm

This may seem like a nutty question:

We all know the official definition of bourbon, one being it has to be in NEW oak barrels for at least 2 years.

NUTTY QUESTION:
Can is still be called bourbon if it were in that new oak for 2 years then moved to used oak for the rest of it's aging?

Not that anyone would go to the trouble to do that, but I was just wondering if it had ever been done and still be called bourbon....I know Early Times uses some used oak, about 20%? But do they also mingle with new oak barrels?
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Unread postby gillmang » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:31 pm

Mike, I took a quick look at the regulations. My interpretation is what you described would not qualify. The regs (as I read them) speak of bourbon or straight bourbon having to be aged in new charred barrels. Bourbon later processed in reused wood would not I think fit the definition. Also, only straight bourbon need be aged at least 2 years. Bourbon (without the straight modifier) can be sold as such provided it is "aged" in new charred barrels, i.e., (presumably) for a time. Of course in addition, bourbon must be from an all-grain mash of which at least 51% is corn and distilled at 160 or under. The whiskey you describe could I think be called whiskey from a bourbon mash (or just whiskey) since whiskey from a bourbon mash is defined as made from the same mash bourbon is and distilled at 160 or under but not aged in new charred wood. The regs are very detailed and delphic in places and even as a lawyer I find them hard to understand, so I stand to be corrected if need be. :)

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Unread postby BourbonBalls » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:38 pm

Thanks Gary for the thoughts.....

But just to clarify my "nutty question", I fully understand all the other specifics to be called bourbon (51% corn, etc.) but the question is if all the other bourbon specs were met, and the bourbon was in new oak for 2 years and THEN moved to used oak....is it bourbon?

I know this is just an exercise in terms....but just curious if the regs were put to the test in this way, it would qualify....

Maybe I should have another drink!
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Unread postby gillmang » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:45 pm

Well, the regs speak of aging in new charred barrels. They do not say "only" new charred barrels, but when you read them together with the definition of whiskey from a bourbon mash, it seems to me that the subsequent treatment of whiskey (even if unintentional) in reused wood would alter it from being bourbon. Maybe I am wrong since if you put it in a stainless tank, it is still bourbon. This must be one of those interpretation matters that lawyers for distilleries have given opinions on. Maybe the Government has been asked to rule on it, I don't know. I wonder if Chuck Cowdery has a view on this.

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Unread postby White Lightning » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:05 pm

Well please clarify how Distiller's Masterpiece is cognac and port finished respectively?

Aside from the above there's another potentially gaping one which apparently went unnoticed. :idea:

My understanding (realize it's limited) but I was under the impression that a used barrel of bourbon whiskey that is dumped and vatted could not be later be refilled with the vatted bourbon whiskey and still be called bourbon? In addition it was my understanding that upon re-entry in a new or old barrel any age statement started back at ZERO at the time of re-entry. Is all that correct?
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Unread postby gillmang » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:35 pm

I don't know, to be honest. I assumed the original question was asking about subsequent aging in reused wood - not just temporary storage. The cognac and port-aged bourbon thing was discussed on the other board some time ago, I don't recall the various possible explanations given. Maybe they were along the lines that the storage in port-finished casks was so brief it did not alter the nature of the bourbon but justified a mention (as factual informtion) of the last container the bourbon finished its production in. Maybe there is another explantion, I don't know. Or maybe one can in fact store straight bourbon whiskey for years in reused cooperage and still call it bourbon, but I would have thought not.

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Unread postby bourbonv » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:08 pm

This is an interesting question that does not seem to have an answer. It could be argued that aging in used barrels - cognac or port barrels in some cases - is adding flavors outside the definition. Unless somebodt challenges the practice in court, we may not know an answer. There is one thing that does support Michael's question as well as "Cognac or Port Finishes" as being acceptable to the regs - For years it has been OK to dump whiskey from the same season and same distillery and "condense" the barrels. That would be putting bourbon back into used barrels.

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Unread postby gillmang » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:57 pm

The condensing in my view is valid if done temporarily, to hold the whiskey pending final (or real) dumping and bottling. There is a difference between prolonging aging and holding the bourbon for a limited time. In truth or rather in my view, reused barrels do impart their own taste and it is distinctive. A familiarity with Canadian whisky will show this, I call it an "exhausted new charred barrel taste", which is better in practice than it sounds. :) However the law is what it is and this is a technical matter that only legal specialists in the area, which I am not, can express an authoritative view on.

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Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:05 am

Gary,
I know of condensed barrels that were condensed several years before they were bottled. Of course these barrels were all barrels from which some of the whiskey came from when it was dumped. It is an interesting question Michael has posed and I am not sure what the legal aspects are.

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Unread postby OneCubeOnly » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:37 am

I recall having a similar online discussion with Chuck Cowdery when the topic of Jacob's Well came up. JW touted it's uniqueness by how they rebarrelled (or "condensed") the bourbon by topping off existing barrels.

Chuck said something to the effect of "it's not as uncommon as the industry would like to talk about." (Paraphrase).
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Unread postby BourbonBalls » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:44 am

Topping off existing barrels with other aged barrels or topping off with more white dog?
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Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:26 am

Definitely not white dog. As far as I know, it is only whiskey made in the same season. It really is a fairly common practice.

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Unread postby gillmang » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:41 am

Well, the taste I was describing (exhausted barrel taste) really can only apply to a non-bourbon entry in the barrel. If you put bourbon back in the same barrels it came from, only some are different, either to retard evaporation or uniformise the taste, I'm now thinking that's okay even if the condensing occurs for some years. If they retrict it to one season's output they probably feel no significant change can occur to the whiskey, it is still all "the same". Whereas if you mingle with different seasons' whiskey, there is too much "change" due to interaction of "different" whiskeys from the re-barreling (the whiskey in the barrel staves interracting with re-barreled whiskey). This seems a proper interpretation of the rules to me but again, I am not expert in the area.

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Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:32 pm

The next question to ask here is "If the barrels have been condensed, can one of those barrels be barreled as a single barrel whiskey?" This is assuming the whiskey was condensed after say 8 years and to be bottled at say 10 years.

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Unread postby gillmang » Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:04 pm

My own view is, no. The whiskey has been batched. Each barrel can lend different influences. Whiskey stored in more than one barrel arguably has been subjected to the influence of, well, more than one barrel. Probably the condensing practice is very old and goes back to the bonding days and was meant to confer greater uniformity on a distiller's bonded whiskey. A single barrel whiskey CAN be bonded but any interest in conferring a house character would be furthered by creating a batch from the season's output whether or not given further years in the barrels.

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