ER-17 Vatting 101 with Professor MikeK

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ER-17 Vatting 101 with Professor MikeK

Unread postby MikeK » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:27 pm

Prerequisite: Go read my recent Eagle Rare 17 review. I find this bottling of ER-17 rather characterless, but its age and body make it an excellent component for vatting.

My first experiment involved adding it to Ancient Ancient Age. The feistiness of AAA made a nice pairing with aged smoothness of ER-17. The vatting had a few rough edges, but it was an interesting and satisfying result.

Last night I finally tried a vatting I had been contemplating for several weeks; ER-17 and Stagg (Spring 05 bottling). I was aiming to solve 2 problems in one ‘shot’. ER-17 has too little character and Stagg can have too much. Now I do often enjoy Stagg neat, but you have to be in the right mood to deal with it.

I’ve never liked adding water to a whiskey to bring down the proof or “open it up’. I understand the concept, but for me even a few drops of water thin out the body too much. So how does one tame a super strong bourbon without adding water? How about by adding a very smooth bourbon of lower proof and similar age?

The result was marvelous. The ER-17 knocked the Stagg down a peg without thinning out the body or character. It was full and complex with a ton of flavor. But it had lost that evil little edge that makes you sip straight Stagg oh-so-slowly.

P.S. I’m certain that many of you are gasping in horror at this hideous transgression. I await your abuse. :twisted:
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Unread postby gillmang » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:58 pm

Well, people know I won't object since I am a proponent of intelligent blending. The ER 17 and Stagg combination seems particularly apt since both are from the same plant and of the same age (approximately). This is moreover how I think a distillery panel would approach it, they would I think pose the kind of "problem" you did and solve it in a similar way. Of course for them they might view it simply as adding another shade of color to the range they have on offer, they're just adding something different to appeal to people who like that taste (everyone likes something different!). For me the best part of doing this is getting new flavours: "new" bourbons in a sense but without having to buy the extra bottles. I only do this to create new flavours, not out of caprice or boredom or (needless to say I hope) any disrespect for the distilleries.

Gary
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Unread postby MikeK » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:51 am

gillmang wrote:For me the best part of doing this is getting new flavours: "new" bourbons in a sense but without having to buy the extra bottles. I only do this to create new flavours, not out of caprice or boredom or (needless to say I hope) any disrespect for the distilleries.
Gary


My thoughts exactly Gary. Why do I have many bottles in the bunker instead of just my one or two very favorites? Because my mood varies, and on any given night I would like something different to taste and enjoy. By thoughtful vatting we can create 'new' bourbons to enjoy without the expense of more bottles. And it's fun!

Cheers, Mike
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Re: ER-17 Vatting 101 with Professor MikeK

Unread postby Mike » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:14 am

MikeK wrote:I was aiming to solve 2 problems in one ‘shot’. ER-17 has too little character and Stagg can have too much. Now I do often enjoy Stagg neat, but you have to be in the right mood to deal with it.



Well, you know I am in this game too. I think I may try an 'experiment' similiar to yours with Stagg and Elijah Craig 18 YO for the self-same reasons you described above. I can't get Eagle Rare 17 YO here, but from your review, it seems to share many qualities with the ER 18 YO, very smooth and docile. Just the thing to tame Stagg a bit.

Like you, Mike, I tried to cut the Stagg with water, but it seems to lose too much character that way............but, to be honest, I can't handle the 130+ proof spirits except in small, small doses.

Keep up the good work, Professor!
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby bourbonv » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:00 am

MikeK,
There is nothing wrong with your little vatting experiment. The fact is that just about every bourbon you drink is a vatted bourbon unless it is a single barrel bourbon. The distillers pick different taste profiles from barrels to "marry" or "Vat" together to get the taste profile they wish for a brand. At Woodford Reserve, they do this with product from two different distilleries. Vatting is something that happens all of the time in the bourbon industry. Now if you start adding prune juice and artificial caramel then you are going down a dark path indeed...


So you think this vatting improved both products? If so, then you did a successfull vatting. John Lipman once said that a cocktail should be designed to improve the taste of the bourbon or else it is a failure. I would say the same is true for a vatting experiment - it should improve the bourbons involved or it is a failure.

Mike Veach
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Unread postby Mike » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:40 am

bourbonv wrote:Now if you start adding prune juice


About that prune juice..................would that make a 'self-cleaning' cocktail?

'Barleycorn'! 'Barleycorn'! 'Wanna try something new'?

'Wait'! 'Wait'! 'Les us do this in the back woods'.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby bourbonv » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:56 am

Mike,
Most American and Canadian blends use prune juice or cherry juice for color and flavor.

Mike Veach
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Unread postby Mike » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:08 pm

Oops! Good thing I don't mind my ignorance on these matters showing............I can't hide it!
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby gillmang » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:52 pm

Here is where Mike Veach and I disagree. Additives such as fruit extracts can help make a very good whiskey but then it is (even if the other elements are all-straight whiskey) a blend, not a mingling or vatting. I have some very good whiskeys that are mostly straight whiskey but with a bit of flavouring of some kind, maple syrup, brown sugar, Southern Comfort, often a combination. I don't think blending or vatting needs to improve the constituents, all it needs to do is create a different taste, one that is pleasing and stands on its own merits. Anyway for me it is just one road to take among many: sometimes the drink should be one brand, sometimes a vatting, sometimes a blending (in the technical sense noted) of my own, it just depends what I feel like sampling at the time. One of my best minglings, designed as an after dinner drink - a whiskey liqueur - is based on two rock and ryes to give the sweet and citrus elements. On top of that I put (ultimately) maybe 30 or 40 straight whiskeys and possibly some Canadian whiskey (I think Forty Creek). This is absolutely (if I may say) brilliant. It has a deep bourbon pipe tobacco nose and taste with rye tangs, the whole accentuated by the sweet and citrus elements of the rock and ryes (one was Hiram Walker's, the other, Leroux'). There is no way I can recreate it but it is a stunning drink, really. It uses some old whiskeys (up to 18-20 years old range) but most are good quality bourbons with some cheap ones too but the whole is a rich seamless very flavourful blended drink, no whiskey fan would I feel disdain it. It will be on the Gazebo table at end April.

Gary
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Unread postby bourbonv » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:26 pm

Gary,
I understand and respect your opinion, but I do disagree to some degree. I agree the purpose is to create a different taste, but I think if the taste is not better than what you started with, then why bother. Even so, I would be happy to try anything you blended or vatted. You are good at what you do with the spirits.

Mike Veach
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Unread postby gillmang » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:34 pm

And "vice versa", Mike, I look forward to trying some of these with you before long. :)

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