De gustibus non est disputandum

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De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby Mike » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:03 pm

Even the Romans knew that there is no disputing tastes.......... they are subjective. Howsomever, that is not the end of that story, tastes do change and in my opinion can be trained (i.e. improved) to some degree. We dispute about tastes here all the time. Somewhere in the background is the notion, however farfetched, however selfish, that if you but knew what I do, you would like what I like. And, of course, that is tautologically true because if you knew what I know, you might as well be me, or at least a reasonable facsimile of me.

But you ain't.

Still, a fascinating aspect of the 'taste is subjective' question is that just as much as we are trying to justify our own taste, we are trying to find the commonality with each other's taste. Seems to be in our being to do that. We try to use a shared bourbon language, (sweet, rich, spicy, hot, dry, vanilla, syrup, leather, etc. etc.) to overcome our subjectivity.

All of which brings me to my point. Don't allow subjectivity to mean very much........... look to credit the palates of others, look to learn.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby devilscut » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:07 pm

What did you just say??
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby Mike » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:17 pm

devilscut wrote:What did you just say??


Said, 'takes all kinds, don't it'?
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby gillmang » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:53 pm

Well, Mike means that there is objectively a "good" palate out there, whiskey which is true, and whiskey which isn't (or so much). I agree. One can't gainsay another's opinion, to be sure, but there is a golden measure or mean, yes. Given enough experience, most bourbon fans do agree on what is really good. (I have found this in conclaves including John and Linda's klatch recently). Really what it amounts to is, keep one's mind open, learn, contribute to others but also listen/absorb. I am still learning, it's a lifelong thing.

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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby Satty Beach » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:08 am

I've been wanting to tackle a topic similar to this. My theory is that a typical meat and potatoes diet, prepared American style, "sets up" the palate to appreciate bourbon. That's why you want a whiskey with that steak. Some other regional diet, say lamb and saffron, no you can't do that it doesn't match. Real Chinese food, that's why they drink crazy sweet wines with them, it matches. Traditional French food calls for wine. Period. Even though the ingredients are N European beef/grain it is prepared a certain style that calls for wine. By the bottle. The list goes on. Just wanted to throw my two cents in on a topic that I have been mulling over. Want to make it clear I'm not just talking about with dinner/supper drink. For instance, I think that if you were to eat a mediterranean diet EXCLUSIVELY, that would throw your bourbon receptors off. This also may be why some people describe this or that bourbon 180 degrees differently than the base mean.

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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby EllenJ » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:25 pm

Nicely put.
And I agree completely. Let's see what others have to say about this, but I think you've covered all the bases pretty well.
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby gillmang » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:33 am

I think in a practical, day-to-day way of living that's true, or it works out that way. But whether it's inherently so - that tea goes best with Chinese cooking, say, or sweet fermented drinks (including beer) - is not that clear to me. For example, Cognac is a high-end drink in Hong Kong and mainland China and specifically is consumed at meal times. The Japanese drink their own, Scotch-style whisky with their food. In Owensboro, one of the cradles of Kentucky bourbon, lamb barbecue is a noted local specialty. Beer is drunk regionally in parts of France with their food, the far North and Alsace although I suppose you could argue that the cooking there isn't typically French. Finally, wine is now a major American drink but before the 1980's almost no one drank it and the food traditions (British and other northern European-derived, mostly) would not have seemed appropriate to it.

It remains true though a country's classic products usually go very well together, some kind of synergy emerges over time. It's to the point that, say, while I almost never drink Booker's, I really like it with a good steak! Not sure why, could it be that corn-fed beef complements the corn taste of the bourbon? Those two go very well together and I'd go so far to say that a woody old bourbon doesn't - it has to be moderate aged and on the Beamy side of the profile.

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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby 393foureyedfox » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:41 am

am i the one guy who doesnt want bourbon with food?

i only want it by itself, not with a meal, not with ice, not with water, not mixed......
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby Mike » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:16 pm

Interesting that this discussion has moved in the direction of food, and by extension I would say, to the character of cultures.

I have argued before on this site that bourbon belongs to America, it fits the American character........... robust individuality, a bit rough at times, straightforward (subtlety not being its most highly prized quality), and in that sense it is like American food........ not usually known for refined taste and subtlety, as opposed to French food, which is..... as is Cognac.

I think because bourbon is so often been used in America as a means for quick inebriation, it is has not usually been paired with food. And, because it is usually associated with its characteristic 'bite', it might tend to overpower most foods. I almost never drink bourbon with a meal, and when I do, it is almost always with barbeque, and its closest association with food is probably with barbeque. I sometimes baste my ribs with bourbon when cooking.

I think bourbon and dark chocolate are an excellent complementary combination, and to me older bourbons work well with beef or with lamb, both of which tend to dominate the mouth when you eat them......... bourbon can work with them in my opinion. But bourbon would overpower most foods unless diluted quite a lot. A very small amount works IN some foods....... desserts, stews, and soups.

I wonder if bourbon diluted to around 18 to 20 proof (like a sherry or port?) might be a suitable companion for some American dishes. Baked chicken in mushroom sauce and Old Forester, anyone?
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby gillmang » Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:29 pm

Sure, just pour a tall bourbon and soda.

I don't know, a lot of this sounds arbitrary to me. Armagnac is pretty feisty, not to mention marc brandy. At least as much as bourbon if not more so. One may tend to rationalize the combinations (or lack thereof) ex post facto...

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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby Mike » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:47 pm

gillmang wrote:Sure, just pour a tall bourbon and soda.

I don't know, a lot of this sounds arbitrary to me. Armagnac is pretty feisty, not to mention marc brandy. At least as much as bourbon if not more so. One may tend to rationalize the combinations (or lack thereof) ex post facto...

Gary


There is certainly risk in making too hasty connections twixt food and bourbon, or worse yet, spirits and culture. All cultures seem to make alcoholic drinks, and do so with the most readily available fermentable. But I still think there is some connection between the culture's overall palate and how the spirit turns out. One is left to wonder why the English never developed distilled spirits (is gin an exception, although its origins go back to the Ductch) ........ was it because they considered both the Irish and the Scots to be beneath them so they would not adopt their practices, or because they preferred to go outside England for everything but beer (e.g. they kept the Sherry industry in Spain busy)?

But the speculation in that direction may be more fun than true, so I will just have a bit of fun with it. Certainly, the American character is different from that of the Europeans, and even more different from the Chinese, and I would say that you do not mistake any other culture's spirits for bourbon (as far as I am aware - Armagnac, to me, while not near so delicate as Cognac, does not have the spicy 'bite' of bourbon to my palate, and I drink it pretty regularly).

As for other cultures the Japanese seem so to be in love with Scotch and Bourbon. Ah, but they lost a war (badly) to the British and Americans, which settled a few cultural differences. Well, every 'rule' needs an exception, if only to prove the 'rule'.
Last edited by Mike on Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby gillmang » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:06 pm

Points all noted Mike except the Japanese infatuation with Scotch well-predates their decisive defeat in 1945.

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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby Squire » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:32 pm

I kinda skimmed over the posts on this thread because I made my mind up over 20 years ago with the Booker Noe recipe for Kentucky Tea. An ounce or less or Bourbon in a tall glass filled with ice and water. Fine accompaniment to food and my pick of cuisine is even simpler . . . I choose what goes well with the Bourbon.
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby 393foureyedfox » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:35 pm

Mike wrote:
There is certainly risk in making too hasty connections twixt food and bourbon, or worse yet, spirits and culture. All cultures seem to make alcoholic drinks, and do so with the most readily available fermentable. But I still think there is some connection between the culture's overall palate and how the spirit turns out. One is left to wonder why the English never developed distilled spirits (is gin an exception, although its origins go back to the Ductch) ........ was it because they considered both the Irish and the Scots to be beneath them so they would not adopt their practices, or because they preferred to go outside England for everything but beer (e.g. they kept the Sherry industry in Spain busy)?

But the speculation in that direction may be more fun than true, so I will just have a bit of fun with it. Certainly, the American character is different from that of the Europeans, and even more different from the Chinese, and I would say that you do not mistake any other culture's spirits for bourbon (as far as I am aware - Armagnac, to me, while not near so delicate as Cognac, does not have the spicy 'bite' of bourbon to my palate, and I drink it pretty regularly).

As for other cultures the Japanese seem so to be in love with Scotch and Bourbon. Ah, but they lost a war (badly) to the British and Americans, which settled a few cultural differences. Well, every 'rule' needs an exception, if only to prove the 'rule'.




sometimes the diverse nature of mike's messages make me think he has two, or more, distinct personalities. they are all fun and interesting though!
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Re: De gustibus non est disputandum

Unread postby Mike » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:15 pm

393, my dog, Barleycorn, has my password and writes some of my posts and/or replies, as he did this one.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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