Can cheap make moderate better?

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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Birdo » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:50 am

JPBoston wrote:
PaulO wrote:There are two versions of ET: Kentucky Whiskey (used cooperage), and 354 bourbon. Just saying.


I think the assumption is, unless stated to be the 354 (which seems to be less widely available) then you're discussing regular ol' ET. I mean, that's what the extra numbers are there for, correct?

And not to re-stoke the flames, but in my humble opinion: if we can't call the current, standard, ET "swill".... I don't know what the hell we can. I just don't see the reason for its existence, with actual straight bourbon available for the same price (such as EWB, OGD 80, Benchmark, JBW, etc). If it was in any real way cheaper, then I'd understand. But for the same price, I'll support the distilleries/brands that put that little extra effort and expense to make legit straight bourbon.


JP Boston brings up an excellent point. For us to say that we like or love one bourbon, we must also be willing to say what we don't like. In my case, I like value stuff with a rye mash bill and higher proof. I don't care for many of the 80 proof bourbons including ET, however, I try to put a positive spin on those products because they have their place, just not in my bourbon cabinet. They are cheap and mix well sort of like rum or vodka.

Why don't we rag on Beam Ghost white whiskey for a while? I haven't had it, but it's white and intended to mix like vodka at a much higher price, who wants that? Good for Beam if they find customers to buy it.

BTW, I don't care for makers marks. I have had much better for less $$$. Weller is a great example of wheated bourbon done right at a sensible price.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby EllenJ » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:38 pm

I dunno, it's just kinda funny to me (and probably to JPBoston, too) that Early Times has managed to generate such a discussion here on what is supposedly a "bourbon discussion" site. The marketers, Brown Forman, have gone to great lengths to make sure that no one confuses Early Times with bourbon whiskey. Much as they've done (or at least continued) with Jack Daniel's.

To begin with, Early Times Kentucky-Style Whiskey is not intended to be considered a bourbon. One might as well substitute Seagram's 7 or Windsor, both of which are accurate substitutes for Early Times. Except that neither of those have quite the same flavor profile. Of course, neither does Wild Turkey or Evan Williams Black Label, but Early Times isn't really marketed as a substitute for those brands.

Early Times 354 is the same whiskey, aged 4 years in only new, charred oak barrels, and bottled at 80 proof, as Old Forester. I have an example of Early Times Kentucky Straight Bourbon from the late '60s and I can say that it DOES taste better than the the current 354, but only because ALL bourbon made before the eighties tastes better than the same brands made after de-regulation. Early Times (as bourbon) was the No.#1 selling bourbon IN THE WORLD during the 1950s, and not because folks didn't know any better. It was always a blue-collar, manly-man hunting/fishing sort of brand and Brown Forman didn't really spend a lot to position it to the New York City elite (they used that money for promoting their recent acquisition, Jack Daniel's). With JD as their overwhelmingly chief product, and with Old Forester as their perfectly placed bourbon whiskey, it's pretty easy to see why Brown Forman didn't feel a need to maintain Early Times as its own competitor. They could have just disappeared it, which is what other distilleries began doing about that time. Or, since they didn't have Canadian Mist at the time and Old Forester is arguably a bit too flavorful for cocktail mixing, they continued to sell Early Times Bourbon overseas (we have a Japanese bottle of it from the '90s which tastes just like 80 proof Old Forester), but targeted the American version to cocktailians. Quite successfully, as a matter of fact. Which is where it belongs, and where it shines, and where it should remain as much out of our little niche-like discussion world as Canadian Club, or Johnnie Walker, or Ron Zacapa, or Pisco.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Satty Beach » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:56 pm

I like Early Times. It tastes good with a hard to nail down candy store flavor and decent viscosity. It's way, way more bourbony than Seagrams or anything else (IDK how they get it so sweet from used cooperage?). I usually buy 750 glass bottles but this discussion pointed me toward a plastic handle as an investment in the future, and one less trip. Wrecked it for me, all I could taste was the vodka. Maybe this batch was pulled too soon, but, it's back to glass for me.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby gillmang » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:04 pm

IMO they get it so sweet because, by the reports I referred to earlier, it is mostly bourbon - unless the formulation has changed, but that would seem unlikely. See pg. 16 of "Bourbon, Straight" by Charles K. Cowdery where Chuck writes that "whiskey aged in used barrels is mixed with whiskey aged in new barrels in a ratio of 1:4". So that would make it 80% bourbon.

I agree it isn't really comparable to a blend, but clearly is not a straight bourbon either, it is mid-way between, one might argue.

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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby 393foureyedfox » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:48 pm

Birdo wrote: In my case, I like value stuff with a rye mash bill and higher proof. I don't care for many of the 80 proof bourbons



sounds similar to me.

what recommendations can you make based on that to me, that fall in the under $25 category? arent you the fan of fighting cock? i keep wanting to try that, but every time i almost pick it up, i think to myself that its just gonna taste like every other BIB heaven hill makes. worth it?
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby gauze » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:49 pm

I went to buy a bottle of Fighting Cock today and my go to store was OUT I was kinda bummed but not that bummed as I got 3 bottles anyway.
Anyway yeah Fighting Cock is good, I really like Old Granddad 100 and 114 proof as well in the high rye category. Hell Wild Turkey is under $25 almost anywhere and is a fine fine pour.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby PaulO » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:56 am

393foureyedfox wrote:
Birdo wrote: In my case, I like value stuff with a rye mash bill and higher proof. I don't care for many of the 80 proof bourbons



sounds similar to me.

what recommendations can you make based on that to me, that fall in the under $25 category? arent you the fan of fighting cock? i keep wanting to try that, but every time i almost pick it up, i think to myself that its just gonna taste like every other BIB heaven hill makes. worth it?

The last couple of bottles of FC I tried were very good (if you like HH). It seemed a little sweeter, thicker, and less dry compared to HH 6 year BIB.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby 393foureyedfox » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:55 am

i guess FC will be my next purchase then. last week it was between that and Ezra 7/101, and i went with the ezra, so i now have no excuse.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Birdo » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:58 am

393foureyedfox wrote:i guess FC will be my next purchase then. last week it was between that and Ezra 7/101, and i went with the ezra, so i now have no excuse.



How is the EZRA? Haven't had that one yet. I'll bet its a HH label.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Bourbon Joe » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:17 am

Birdo wrote:
393foureyedfox wrote:i guess FC will be my next purchase then. last week it was between that and Ezra 7/101, and i went with the ezra, so i now have no excuse.



How is the EZRA? Haven't had that one yet. I'll bet its a HH label.

It's not a HH label but it probably is HH whiskey.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Squire » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:23 pm

Gary I understand originally only about 20% of ET was aged in second use barrels but I can see why BF would not mention that any new char barrels are used because it would imply ET is a diminished form of Bourbon, which of course it is. The proportion could be higher now, Lord knows they have a slew of used barrels on hand.
Last edited by Squire on Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby gillmang » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:26 pm

But they do mention that Squire, in fact their website (www.earlytimes.com) mentions only aging in used barrels for the Kentucky Whiskey.

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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Squire » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:43 pm

That's what I said Gary, they only mention used barrels. To add new barrels were also used for part of the blend would imply used barrels alone weren't quite good enough.
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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby gillmang » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:12 pm

Well, not sure I follow that logic.. Why would anyone think a bourbon mash-only product has any kind of standing, there has never been a precedent for it as far as I know.

I think they just have summarized the technique and omitted the fact of mixing for some reason. In other words, I would doubt the product is 100% bourbon mash whiskey, it tastes like bourbon to a certain point.

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Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Mike » Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:53 pm

For some reason completely unknown to me, I have never once tried Early Times. It was always on the very bottom shelf and I suppose I always thought that I would get around to it.

As for used barrels, as we are all aware, within the used barrels lies much that has to do with the previous contents, not just how much of the original barrel remains there for use. I would assume that Early Times 'aims' at a profile and is not anywhere near a small batch bourbon. In a fit of egotism, I bet a handfull of us BE folks could select some barrels from ET bound stock and offer a superb bourbonlike whiskey.

I must get a bottle of Early Times to see for meself.
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