Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

There's a lot of history and 'lore' behind bourbon so discuss both here.

Moderator: Squire

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:39 pm

It's possible that grapes, maybe wild grapes, were used as a yeast source and might have imparted a winy note.

But any ferment - even with lager yeast let alone a top-fermenting strain - may well produce a fruity beer if effected at a high temperature. Ale in England and as made by some U.S. micros is often very fruity from esters in the mash.

All those white fruit alcohols a lot of the microdistillers are making taste very fruity...

Maryland would have been brewers' territory more than winemakers. And the immigrants were mostly British originally...

I theorize (just a personal view on the subject) that rye and bourbon too was more fruity once than now. Shucks, you can tell this from National Distillers Old Taylor and Old-Gran-dad still in certain parts of the U.S. quite available. I wonder though as yeast strains became uniformised for industry if some of that was lost and maybe the Marylanders added some fruity essence to put it back in.

Although, adding a touch of winy quality is historical in Scotland too, and Ireland, via sherry cask aging or finishing. So the idea may go back a long way.

Gary
Last edited by gillmang on Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:41 pm

Oops sorry Jeff, it is 80 proof you wrote, not 80% ABV, so I must have misread, sorry.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby cowdery » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:53 pm

I'm not sure but I think the wooden stills were packed stills, using smooth stones to create surface area.
- Chuck Cowdery

Author of Bourbon, Straight
User avatar
cowdery
Registered User
 
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:07 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:59 pm

gillmang wrote:I theorize (just a personal view on the subject) that rye and bourbon too was more fruity once than now. Shucks, you can tell this from National Distillers Old Taylor and Old-Gran-dad still in certain parts of the U.S. quite available. I wonder though as yeast strains became uniformised for industry if some of that was lost and maybe the Marylanders added some fruity essence to put it back in.

Gary


This is what I am interested in. People like yourself and Mr. Cowdery that have really immersed yourselves in the history of American whiskey: what do you think Maryland whiskey tasted like, and how do you think it was made? I want your personal views.
Leopold
Registered User
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:09 am
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:12 pm

Oh, and should add that I have a copy of the Practical distiller, thank you.

I'm enjoying this discussion. Hope you are, too.
Leopold
Registered User
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:09 am
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:33 pm

Hey, Chuck is the true historian (with a fine published book, Bourbon, Straight and many other writings and a video too). Mike Veach too, an archivist with a Louisville historical association, knows tons about whiskey and its history. I am just an enthusiast. But thanks for your comments. Glad you have the Byrn book, its comments on rye whiskey are I think authoritative. On the other hand, it is also true that experimentation is part of the American whiskey tradition. While a core of practices - new charred barrel aging, corn or rye in the mashbill, distillation under 160 proof - characterize the spirit, there was a wide variety of practices in the old days, and hopefully will be again. Anyone can still create a great whiskey. Not all the old stuff was great (I will never forget reading, in a Canadian whisky book I think, about barrels coming to the market with chunks of salt pork in it from its previous use!). I also once read that some rye (apart from the ergot problem which can afflict it, which can be very dangerous) has an onion-like taste because harvested from fields in which wild onion took root. Not the kind of rye you want to use. :) I think a look at the past is good, and careful thinking about what you want to make, and what might work to create a fine palate, and then it's run for the post.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:50 pm

Hey Todd, I just took a look at the website and think you are doing great work. You are familiar with fruit essences and such I see. Good to see too you are doing pot distillation.

What does your new whiskey taste like, i.e., unflavored? Does it depend on the grains used? How does it change with aging, do you use small wooden barrels like Tuthilltown does?

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:23 pm

I'm making a few different whiskies now. For the flavored whiskies, I use(d) quite a bit of brewer's barley because that's what I had on hand at our old distillery, and also because it had relatively low diastatic power. It's a bit low in corn flavor, even though it was technically a bourbon mash (never saw new char, so it isn't ever a true bourbon)...but I decided to blend the whiskey with the fruit juice before putting it into barrels. The oxygen that is pulled into the barrel has a mild oxidative effect on the fruit, creating more interesting flavors like dried apricots in our Peach Whiskey, or raisins and currants in our Blackberry Whiskey. I made the fruit whiskies for three reasons.....first, a bartender in GA asked me to recreate SoCo using real ingredients, and secondly, it allowed me to stretch our whiskey supply since I was using such a small 40 gallon still, and thirdly, it's fun to make it!

I now have a straight up pot 200 gallon custom designed potstill from Vendome. No plates, and some simple copper packing for vapor contact. I don't lauter, so the full solids from the wash go into the still. I use a recirc. pump to keep solids from scorching on the heating surfaces. Steam jackets.

We are now putting down bourbon, and are looking to start rye (hence all the questions in terms of style). No small barrels. I'm looking to create whiskies that taste more like distillate than they do like barrels.

Yes, I've worked quite a bit with fruit. My background, however, is as a brewer...Siebel Institute class of 96...but I worked in several eaux-de-vie distilleries in Germany and Austria, which is where I really learned to work with all kinds of fruit, before commissioning our still in 2002.

Read Mr. Cowdery's book many moons ago, and told him It was quite inspirational, and we'd be making straight bourbon and rye eventually. Well, it's finally eventually. Our move from Michigan to Denver kinda gummed up our timeline a bit.
Leopold
Registered User
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:09 am
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:18 pm

Very interesting, thanks. In the 1880's a writer from New York, who appeared to be a whiskey broker, wrote a book about whiskey blending. His best blends were mixtures of all-straight whiskeys with a small amount of fruit concentrate added, and he advised to barrel the blends and store them in the upper tier of the warehouse for at least 3 months. I think this is a bit like aging the whiskeys with the flavorings already added as you described. Here is the link:

http://www.pre-pro.com/recipe.htm

You can see that for his best blends, e.g., no. 17, he uses 3 all-rye whiskeys (all the names mentioned were well-known ryes), and grade no. 11 is two bourbons and one rye. His flavouring for no. 11 is prune juice (or prune wine as it was often termed), and for no. 17, a tea extract.

It is my view that a Maryland rye could have been made in the way no. 17 is made. Note that Jos. Fleishman, the author of the book, gives recipes how to make his tea, prune and other extracts. They are all spirit-based, too (i.e., GNS was added to help compound them).

His cheaper blends are the same approach as you see, and they differ, for the "bourbon blends", only in the amount of GNS - the more GNS to cut the blends, the less costly in the market were the blends (makes sense). It is basically the same for the better rye blends although some use coloring I see. His beading oil and bourbon flavouring and such were only used for the cheapest blends called Factious Whiskies.

His all-straight whiskey blends though would have used only aged bourbons or ryes, at least 2 years aged I believe but often more, plus a fruit essence (and not a lot as you see). E.g., you could compound a 2 year old bourbon, a 2 year old rye, and say an older bourbon, to get a balance, and add just a bit of one of the fruit extracts he mentions. Of course the older the whiskeys, the more barrel character. All his fruit essence recipes appear to be made from natural ingredients.

I believe that such blends were common all over the northeast U.S. at one time. With the diminution of distilling outside Kentucky, this kind of approach was still evident in Maryland which still had operating distilleries into the 1960's. In other words, I don't think the fruity style was peculiar to Maryland, I think it survived there longer than anywhere else. In Kentucky, the tradition both for bourbon and rye at least at the higher end was to sell the liquor straight. But in a sense blending of this type survived there too, via the blended whiskies made by all the surviving distilleries in KY (or most of them at any rate). A modern blended American whisky must have at least 20% straight whiskey as I recall, and the rest can be GNS, green whiskey (unaged bourbon mash) and other variants, plus permitted flavorings. This is really like the lower-end whiskeys Fleishman describes. Some Kentucky blends have more than 20% straight whiskey, one brand I know has 50%. That would be like a mid-range Fleischman blend except possibly without flavoring.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Kinsey Worker » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:42 pm

I would say from the Ryes I drank as a kid at Kinsey and from a Bottle of Distilled 1936 Bottled 1942 Mount Vernon Straight Rye from Bal MD that the thing I notice the most is the Flavor of Fresh Rye Bread in the Old Ryes! And a sort of very Nice sweetness and mellowness none of todays Ryes seem to have the same Fresh good flavor. The stuff has plenty of Power but is easy Drinking BIB 100 proof.

I was Lucky enough to find a bottle at a flee Market never open and bought it for $5. I have about a 1/3 of the bottle left and it so much reminds me of our Ryes made by Continental Distilling. It is hard to explain but the Flavor Puts it so far apart from todays ryes even the very best of them and I would take a Vintage Rye from Pa or MD anyday over todays. I was at alot of Baseball games the last week and getting caught up here but that is the way I feel about Maryland and Pa Ryes They To me were the Best of The Best!
Kinsey Worker
================================================
Kinsey The Unhurried Whiskey For Unhurried Moments
Last edited by Kinsey Worker on Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Kinsey Worker
Registered User
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:49 am

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:56 pm

That it fascinating, Gary! Wow.

Kinsey Worker, I have been enthralled by your photos and descriptions of your work in the old days. Amazing stuff.

Do you recall if the Ryes you are describing were made from raw Rye? Or was the Rye malted? I seem to recall that you have a framed grain bill from back in the day. Does that shed any light on what was used to make Rye? And here we are talking about Pennsylvania rye, correct?

Thank you SO much.
Leopold
Registered User
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:09 am
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:35 pm

No problem.

I have some current-issue Hirsch 21 year old rye (apparently stock from the old UDV plant in Louisville, now owned by HH). In fact, it has a sweet rye bread taste like Dave mentions. In other words, I think some of that taste came from prolonged aging. Often in the old days, they put whiskey in the bottle aged way more than the age statement indicated.

If you aged Old Overholt 12 years instead of 4, I think it would taste like this.

But anyway, Jos. Fleischman (1885) gives the hallowed techniques for blending and the beauty is, you can get a good taste without using very old whiskey. The key is the right combination of whiskeys and ages and perhaps a small amount of one of this flavorings. I make my own vattings and blends (just for my own home use) and I don't use flavorings, but there is nothing wrong with it. I have one going where I may add Southern Comfort in the proportions Fleischman would have (very little again, just enough to blend the tastes and add a faint fruity touch). I was just thinking this earlier today.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Kinsey Worker » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:38 pm

Hi! Dave Z KinseyWorker here, the Mash Bill I Have framed says for tub No. 13 the year being 1951 March 3:

100 pounds of pre malt
2010 Pound of Rye
7600 pounds of Corn and
1320 of Malt

The other 3 batches are very close to the same amounts don't know how much that helps but that is what is written!

The Man who was master Distiller is long gone and his son is 90 years old so I am so glad I found these in the ruins. I gave a complete Materials received and Mash bill set to our Historic Society last summer after I found these being trashed by Kids and they are in great shape.

Dave Z
Kinsey Worker
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Join the swing to Kinsey
User avatar
Kinsey Worker
Registered User
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:49 am

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby bourbonv » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:39 am

The one thing that is not discussed here is the yeast. It is my opinion that a lot of the fruity flavors come from the yeast and that is where you should look to duplicate those flavors.

Maryland Rye was hit hard after the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. Maryland rye depended highly on rectification of the whiskey.
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:06 am

You may have missed it, but we discussed ester-producing yeasts on the last page.

Could you please clarify what you mean by Maryland Rye being heavily dependent on rectification?

It seems like we're getting to a bit of consensus that Maryland Rye had a fruity profile. That's very helpful.
Leopold
Registered User
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:09 am
Location: Denver, Colorado

PreviousNext

Return to Bourbon Lore

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 62 guests

cron