Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

There's a lot of history and 'lore' behind bourbon so discuss both here.

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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby bourbonv » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:17 am

Maryland rye, at its height of popularity before the 20th century, was mostly what we would call today a blended whiskey. There was added fruit juice to the product, similar to Canadian whisky.
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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:22 am

Great stuff, bourbonv, thank you. I have to admit that I would never have thought that added juice was part of the profile.

I guess that this explains why the TTB allows for up to 2 1/2% "harmless flavors" in whiskey. I never knew that they were simply codifying old practices.
I thought that that was just for caramel coloring, but I always wondered why the percentage allowed was so high.

The history behind American whiskey is really something.

Thanks so much to all for your input.
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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:44 am

Todd, if you work out the percentage of fruit essence in the formulations of Fleischman, it is not too far off the regs. The regs frequently enshrine practices that go back a century and more.

I think too it is important to say that the best blends were mixtures of all-straight whiskeys. A blending agent would have been added to some to bind the whiskeys as it were and lend a keynote, "house" characteristic. In a loose sense this is rectifying, but there is no GNS in this approach, is my point. (On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with using GNS in blends - where it is used correctly - but that is a different story).

I have a short company history of Melrose, one of the old names in Maryland distilling, and it makes it clear that its best brands were combinations of straight ryes of different ages, with addition of a blending agent "made of pure products". We can only speculate what it was, but probably it was one of the fruit concentrates for which Fleischman gave recipes.

To the extent straight rye was sold in Maryland unblended - and it was, Bready makes this clear in his article, it would have been similar in my view to Monongahela rye, except possibly more fruity in taste from natural esters - but here we enter the realm of speculation.

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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Rughi » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:18 pm

In my experience, rye is a much more versatile spirit in making mixed drinks than bourbon. For me, the heavy corn oiliness of bourbon is less easy to mingle with fruit juices, especially, and this is just based on the "barely legal" straight ryes of today, which have a fairly high corn content in them compared to many mashbills of the past.

Were ryes more in favor than bourbons for blending and rectification?

It seems to me I've read more about blending ryes with fruit juices than bourbons. Was the versatility of a high-rye Rye the spirit of choice for blending a century ago - or was it perhaps just more pragmatism that ryes were easily available in areas that had developed a taste for heavily rectified whiskies?

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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:50 pm

Roger, I'll give you my honest view. I think rye in whiskey, as compared to corn (albeit oily as you say - but that diminishes with age), was felt to "need" blending to be more palatable. This blending could take the form of lightening with GNS, a fruited addition of some kind (including sherry and similar), or simply combining all-straight ryes of different ages to get a balanced taste with or without addition of a blending agent.

Not too many people I think could accustom to rye at the typical ages it was sold (say, 4-6 years). It needed blending or mixing with soda such as ginger ale. Think of Rittenhouse for example. I enjoy it greatly but I know some bourbon drinkers who cannot accustom to it whether it (rye in general) be old or young. Bourbon is easier to drink on its own.

This is shown to me, too, by the fact that some distilletrs found objection in the rye component, small as it is, in bourbon itself, and switched to wheat as small grains.

Here is the Melrose view, from a company history ("Melrose - Honey of the Roses") published in the 1940's:

"Understand, it is not to be denied that straight whiskey produced by an expert distiller is a worthwhile product, and preferred, indeed, by some persons. But it can [can is in italics] stand improvement, and must be improved to satisfy the taste of the majority of persons. This is where the rectifier comes in, and why his goods are in demand". I think the explanation is right there and the same didn't happen with bourbon, or not to the same extent, because in general, bourbon is more palatable than straight rye. This is why I think "rock 'n rye" became a large selling item in the old days and "rock 'n bourbon" didn't (to my knowledge).

Bourbon takes certain fruits very well (apricot, peach for example) but I think public taste did not find it necessary to use the addition as often as for rye whiskey. It should be noted though that Fleischman uses very little of his fruited additions. I have made a blend similar to his all-straight whiskey blends and it is hard to tell there is fruit in it (or tea or whatever). I believe many experienced drinkers could not tell on a blind taste test. The object was to marry the whiskies, not change their basic taste.

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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:03 pm

I might add too that of course Canadian whisky and American blended whiskey are big sellers as we know in the U.S., bigger than bourbon I believe. So in a sense, the same thing happened to both bourbon and rye, but less to the former, due I surmise to its inherently greater palatability as viewed by the market at large to be sure.

The old blends of straight whiskeys seemed to have died out not just in the northeast but in Kentucky too. Can it be perhaps because Kentucky had so many distilleries as compared to Maryland that the latter needed to blend to have a commercial product? Bready makes the point in his 1990 article (actually, it was published in Maryland Historical Magazine that year) that Maryland always had many fewer distilleries than Kentucky.

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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:07 pm

Great posts, Gary.
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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby EllenJ » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:08 pm

Okay, first all Todd, you couldn't have gotten responses from better people. Well, at least not until I showed up [cough, cough, cough... wheeeeze :roll: ]. Thomas McKenzie is a distiller whose range of practical experience and awesome depth of technical and hands-on knowledge would (or at least ought to) bring shame to many a "legendary" master distiller in the Bourbon Belt. Jeff (Mozilla) is one of the most enlightening posters you can find in that particular area of whiskey lore that attracts my interest, namely how the industry -- and especially the "forgotten" parts of it -- so closely illustrate the real stories of Americans from the very beginning. Mike (BourbonV) Veach's realm may be a little more limited, as he focuses mainly on Kentucky whiskey, but within that area he is THE authority. In fact, I think it's safe to say that just about any knowledge ever published about Kentucky bourbon is either directly quoted from Mike or from someone who paraphrasing him. And then there's Gary Gillman who, like myself, seems fascinated perhaps even more by all the DISinformation and mythology surrounding American whiskey than by discussions of "which one's better than which". Gary shares with me a basic determination to make observations from completely outside the prescibed viewpoints, and I cherish his fearless disregard for whether his often speculative postulations might bring negative response from sometimes over-rated pundits. Even when I'm one of 'em. Oh, and it doesn't hurt that he REALLY IS "outside the box" for these discussions, since he lives in Canada and his view of American (meaning U.S.) whiskey is peripheral to his main interest, Canadian whiskey.

Okay, that said, here's a couple of responses of my own. Please forgive me, for I know not what I do, but I'll try not to stir up too much trouble...

PaulO wrote wrote:I have tasted modern ryes such as Beam's version of 80 proof Old Overholt, Sazerac Rye, Rittenhouse BIB, and Wild Turkey Rye. I am not sure how any of these would compare to Maryland or Monongahela rye.

Of course all of these are Kentucky rye whiskeys. And, just as some folks believe only Kentucky whiskey can be called "bourbon" (not true), many folks are amazed that Kentucky has a very long and honored reputation for rye whiskey going all the way back into the 19th century. As for comparing them with the non-Kentucky ryes, you need to keep in perspective that what we call "Maryland" or "Monongahela" has evolved very twisted and often interchanging paths -- with roadsigns that were often, uh, shall we say, unreliable. Although the evolution of Kentucky bourbon is complex and draws heavily upon the interactions of powerful distilling (and legislative) families, it is also well-documented. And the heritage of the whiskey industry is revered in Kentucky. Not so with the whiskey industry in Pennsylvania, which was once far larger. Nor in Maryland, where Baltimore attorneys once devoted whole successful careers to protecting clients from phoney "Maryland Whiskey" knock-offs, such being the panache of the term. Not to mention that rye whiskey was also produced quite successfully in states such as New York, where you'd think they'd never heard of th' stuff.

But the trick to remember is this... regardless of the plethora of pre-prohibition brands "returning" after the National Drought, those brands were all owned by only about a half-dozen spirits merchants. And those were nearly all focused on Kentucky distilling sites.

Reasons? Ask BourbonV. My simple answer is that Kentucky's state government was quite proud of its distilling heritage thankyouverymuch and that made it far easier to do business there than in the other states. But the end result is that, while some of the qualities that distinguished between Kentucky rye and the others persisted through the forties and fifties, mostly the distilleries were being shut down and production moved to Kentucky distilleries. The rye whiskey that Wild Turkey sold was originally Pennsylvania rye. Said so right on the label. Jimmy Russell didn't make it in Anderson County, Kentucky; he was busy making fine bourbon there. Austin Nichols bought the whiskey, probably from Publicker/Kinsey or PennCo (maybe both/and). That's who made Rittenhouse before Heaven Hill bought the brand. The fine folks from Bardstown call that brand "Monongahela-style", because it's an old Pennsylvania name, but it was (a) not that old, and (b) from Eastern Pennsylvania, meaning it was -- even originally -- more similar to Maryland-style rye. And Heaven Hill also produces Pikesville, a revered old Maryland rye whiskey that they bought from Majestic in Baltimore. However, the original Pikesville was related only by name to the product sold before prohibition. And Majestic stopped producing whiskey in the early 1970's, continuing to bottle Pikesville Maryland Rye Whiskey from other Maryland sources. Later bottlings were labeled "Maryland-STYLE" whiskey. The whiskey itself came from Pennsylvania, perhaps also Publicker whiskey produced at Kinsey. Or maybe Faust whiskey from Glen Rock, PA, only about forty miles from Baltimore and already producing Maryland-associated brands.

In fact, much of the whiskey called "Maryland" rye came from south-central Pennsylvania. A look at a U.S. map offers a good explanation: There's not much difference between Berlin, PA and Cumberland, MD (about thirty miles) and even less in the people who distilled whiskey in these communities. Now, "Monongahela" is another story. Rye whiskey production in the Western Pennsylvania counties dates from about the time the first pioneer set foot there. America's first armed conflict between our federal government and our own citizens began less than three years after the Constitution was signed, and it all revolved around Monongahela whiskey. By the time rye whiskey became popular in the taverns and public houses of Philadelphia and Baltimore, the spirit whose red-brown color was already well-known enough to have been used as a familiar reference in Herman Melville's Moby Dick ("unspeakable old Monongahela") in 1851 was long only a memory. Like New England rum, whose top position in Atlantic Coast taverns some believe to have been filled by Monongahela whiskey after the "triangle trade" collapsed in the first decade of the 1800s, there are no bottles of Monongahela to examine. Whiskey was sold only by the barrel at that time, and even then sometimes the whiskey was called rum, or cognac. It's not unthinkable that tavern customers never realized that Monongahela WASN'T rum. Melville refers to "old Orleans whiskey", as well as to punch and to red wine, but Monongahela is not further identified as to its nature.

And it would be another century before the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, so we can only wildly guess as to what might have actually been in those barrels. THAT was the "real" Monongahela. The nearest thing we have today (and that's only near to the version National Distillers was making (or buying from PennCo) in the 1980's) is Old Overholt. National Distillers had been pretty good at maintaining the brand's pre-prohibition characteristics (we have examples that can be taste-compared), but had changed the formula dramatically by the time it sold its brands to Jim Beam. Beam, for it's own part, did right by what they got; Even today, over twenty years later, and even while supporting a rye brand of their own (which, despite Jim Murray, tastes almost nothing like Overholt), the flavor of Old Overholt is quite recognizeable when compared to N.D. Overholt from the late '80s.

bourbonv wrote:The one thing that is not discussed here is the yeast. It is my opinion that a lot of the fruity flavors come from the yeast and that is where you should look to duplicate those flavors.

Maryland Rye was hit hard after the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. Maryland rye depended highly on rectification of the whiskey.

To add to what Mike is saying...
Tastings of pre-prohibition (and even some pre-PF&D) whiskeys will quickly dispel the myth that "rectified" whiskey means "cheap, imitation, low-class" whiskey. Some of the greatest whiskeys ever produced were the result of blending aged whiskey with (a) other whiskeys, (b) other spirits than whiskey, (c) other fruit products, and/or (d) tinctures or powders of spices or herbs. The stigma about "evil blended whiskey" appears to have been popularized by proponents of the 1897 Bottled-in-Bond Act (straight whiskey distillers, of course), and intensified a decade later in the campaign to pass the Pure Food & Drug Act. That campaign was aimed primarily toward atrocities in food and drug packaging, of which distilled spirits were only a small part. But horror stories of the meat-packing "jungle" and such practices as coloring canned peas with copper sulfate to make them appear green were eagerly expounded by those spirits producers whose agenda was to concentrate the attention of prohibitionists on products they deemed to be of lesser quality than their own. They actually succeeded, too, for a little while. From its passage in 1906 until the Taft Act, overruling it, went into effect in 1911, it was actually against the law to use "whiskey" on a bottle of anything not meeting the standards of Straight Whiskey (as determined by legislators representing those distillers). Can you imagine anything like that happening today? (well, not counting healthcare reform anyway). We have an example of W.H. McBrayer's Cedar Brook from that era. It's rich and sweet and just a lovely... uh, something. Not quite sure just what, though. The word "whiskey" (let alone "bourbon", which it certainly tastes like) does not appear anywhere on the label. We have also examples of Maryland and Pennsylvania ryes which date from before that period, and I'm certain that many (if not all) of them would not qualify as straight rye whiskey today. That doesn't stop them from being delicious.

Todd, while things like the yeast strain and mashbill are certainly important, I think you'll get the most mileage toward capturing the essence of the old rye whiskeys by taking it off the still at around 100 proof -- or less -- and barreling it at that proof. In a charred barrel (it doesn't have to be a NEW charred barrel unless you're making STRAIGHT rye whiskey). And bottling it after 4 to 7 years at 86-110, depending on what kind of warehousing you're doing. I think most of the Pennsylvania and Maryland ryes didn't increase in ABV like Kentucky whiskeys do, but if your 100-proof rye comes out at 107, I wouldn't be complaining. I believe it was Gary who suggested that one difference between the East PA/Maryland style and Monongahela may have been that the latter was nearly all rye grain, and that might be a good way to go for a meaningful differenciaton if you're making both varieties. Also, I'm not sure what the effects of the malted/unmalted ratio might be. I understand rye isn't the easiest grain to malt, and since the Western Pennsylvanians were certainly no strangers to beer, I'm sure malted barley may have played some role, but perhaps not as significant as when corn is being used for 30% or so of the mash.

By the way, Gary also brings up...

gillmang wrote: ...As for molasses, young rye whiskey was sometimes served from barrels (this in Western Pennsylvania) that had held molasses.

Remember what I mentioned about the ORIGINAL Monongahela and its possible relationship to New England rum? I didn't know about "the molasses connection"; THANKS GARY!! One thing I do know... there are many references to settlers selling rum to the Indians. I've driven many, many times through Western Pennsylvania, and y'know, I don't recall EVER seeing a single cane field anywhere around there. I wonder if that (perhaps rye-based) "rum" might have been the same stuff being sent back over the mountains to the East Coast? I wonder what contribution all that residual molasses might have made to its rum-like character? Hey MikeV: Did the old bourbon-makers ALWAYS use straw to char their barrels? Or might they have used sorghum instead? Wonder how that would enhance the product by the time it got downriver to those taverns along Bourbon street?

Okay folks, I'm older now and slower and it took me most of the afternoon to write this. :? THAT's the reason I don't hang out here like I'd really like to. I'd love to sit and drink and chat with y'all, on account of I can still do that just as fluently as I ever could. At least, until I fall over. :clown:
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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:46 pm

John, great to hear from you, and in your inimitable fashion. I will try to find that molasses/rye/Mon citation for you. It is from the later 1800's.

What do you mean slowing down? No way!

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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:53 pm

EllenJ wrote:
Okay folks, I'm older now and slower and it took me most of the afternoon to write this.


And I greatly appreciate you taking the time to write this. Greatly.

We're already putting down our bourbon at below proof, so we're all set there. We plan to do the same for our rye. We will indeed put some (hopefully, many) barrels for 4 years and more. We use open fermenters with no cooling. Pitch at a low temp, and let it run. I've also used many, many different types of yeast over the years. Both for brewing and distilling. I already have an estery yeast picked out. No problem there. And coming off the still at 100 is also not a problem. Pot still with precious little rectification from Vendome.

I will say this, though, the notion of adding small amounts of currants or peaches or prunes appeals to me greatly. I like the idea of recreating what was in bottles many moons ago. I also like the idea of young whiskey. I will always favor the flavor and aroma of distillate over barrel. I know that this rubs against industry trends, as well as personal preferences. But for me, I'd like to offer a wide array of ages.
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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:05 pm

Todd, with the number of fruit flavorings you are working with now (as viz. your product range), you should be able easily to adapt one to the Fleischman 1885 mode. I see no problem using younger whiskies for the blends although an older one for at least one of them might be a good idea. His no. 17 all-rye whiskey blend is easy to make. I've done it from commercial products (of course) and used a Japanese tea liqueur for the tea extract. Worked great!

Say, one Pikesville rye, one Rittenhouse and one older one (maybe Van Winkle's rye, or an older bourbon for that matter). There are many ways to approach this though. As old Jos. said himself, you can extend the blending idea indefinitely..

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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:00 pm

gillmang wrote: I see no problem using younger whiskies for the blends although an older one for at least one of them might be a good idea.

Gary


I agree completely. Again, I really appreciate all the input here.
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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby gillmang » Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:56 am

Here is a blend I made recently. I had two bottles of mixed bourbons and ryes (Pikesville, Beam White, Knob Creek, Jack Daniels, Dickel SB (these last two not bourbons technically but still), Woodford Reserve, Bulleit, Four Roses Barrel Strength, and a few others). The taste was good, quite uniform actually, of medium-age whiskey mainly. I wanted to lengthen the finish and "define" it better.

So I combined both bottles in an empty handle (1.75 L.). Then I added two ounces of a rich rum from South American I have. This is a sweet, caramel-like rum, not too rum-estery-oily in taste, rather neutral in fact, which is just what I wanted. The effect was much as if I had added spirit caramel to the whiskeys except using another true spirit, all to the good.

Another way to view it: it is rum- "finished" blended straight whiskeys. So, a "blend of straight whiskeys" married with a small natural flavouring.

This is an excellent drink for a little late night sipping or for cocktails. It makes a mean Sazerac. I know, I've tried. :)

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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby cowdery » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:05 pm

John Lipman theorizes, and I tend to agree, that the Maryland ryes evolved into compound products with a lot of additives, so they may have tasted more like modern blended whiskey than modern straight rye. Monongahela is a term that extends from the first white dog produced in western Pennsylvania up to and including drinks that may have resembled modern ryes, though perhaps with a bit more depth and bite.
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Re: Maryland and Monongahela Rye?

Unread postby Leopold » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:11 pm

And I very much appreciate and respect your and Mr. Lipman's opinions on the subject.

Thank you.
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