Speaking of Blends

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Speaking of Blends

Unread postby Mike » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:36 pm

I was at 'my' liquor store recently and they brought out a bottle of Crown Royal XR Canadian Whiskey. The story is that this whiskey is composed largely of whiskey from the long defunct 'Waterloo' distillery that was recently 'discovered' and may be as many as 50 years old. This Crown Royal XR whiskey is contained in a beautiful bottle and sells for $150. I was certainly tempted by the 'blurb' on the special box claiming it was the finest whiskey someone (the master distiller at CR?) had ever hung a lip over. Anybody know if this stuff is legit and, if so, it it worth $150 in his or her estimation?
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby bourbonv » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:33 pm

Mike,
I personaly find it hard to spend over $100.00 for any whiskey. I don't think I would gamble on this without having tasted it first unless someone very knowledgable (Gary for instance) could assure me it was worth the money.
Mike Veach
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Unread postby gillmang » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:33 am

Thanks Mike for that comment, I have been looking for this whisky but it has not been made available (that I have seen) in Ontario. This is somewhat odd since the Waterloo distillery was located here (about 70 miles west of Toronto) and Seagram was founded in the area in the 1800's. I will persist and give my impressions if I find it.

I agree with Mike that few whiskeys are worth more than $100.

Ones that are include any mid-70's Ardbeg, 25 year old Cutty Sark, and one or two others (Hirsch 20 year old).

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Unread postby Mike » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:08 pm

One hundred dollars is kinda my upper limit too. I have spent that on several occasions. Even more once for a bottle of McCallen 18 YO Gran Reserva Scotch (quite worth it in my opinion). I have a couple of bottles of cognac in that price range and a bottle of 30 YO Tawny Port. I like 21 YO Black Maple Hills, which sells in these parts for $109. That is a known and loved quanitiy to me but I ain't parted with my money for that a second time. Last weekend I came across a bottle of Tribute for $85 in Chattanooga, TN...........I whipped it off the shelf at warp speed!!

At the liquor store, I suggested that we open the CR XR and the owner said do it...........but his manager held back and the manager prevailed. I think it is illegal in GA to provide samples in a liquor store, so the manager was wise to say no. The manager seems to be of the opinion that people will buy this as a collector's item. But I allowed as how I ain't no collector.......if I got it it would be opened straight away.

I rather doubt that I will buy it...............unless it gets some fantastic reviews and I am weak willed one day at the liquor store. I really have no business spending that much money on a whiskey that may be a pig in a poke.............in spite of the CR Master Distiller's claims of it's being the goodest whiskey ever put in a bottle.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby bourbonv » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:15 pm

Mike wrote: "I need to get back to the liquor store when the owner is there and his manager isn't."

I love it! That is the true spirit here - whiskey is for drinking and not collecting and Mike seems to have an ally in the store owner. Mike, If you really really think it might be something good, buy it and bring it to Kentucky. I'll split the cost with you, but only if you are convinced it is good. Work on the owner let us know.
Mike Veach
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Unread postby Mike » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:43 pm

bourbonv wrote:Mike wrote: "I need to get back to the liquor store when the owner is there and his manager isn't."

I love it! That is the true spirit here - whiskey is for drinking and not collecting and Mike seems to have an ally in the store owner. Mike, If you really really think it might be something good, buy it and bring it to Kentucky. I'll split the cost with you, but only if you are convinced it is good. Work on the owner let us know.


Shucks, Mike!! You ain't helping my resolve some atall..........I may have to resort to a third mortgage on the hen house or else talk them hens into laying more eggs.

I know! I will send Barleycorn out to have a meeting with the hens..........he seems to have a way with them and they always lay more after one of his visits............I bet he tells them how nice they are and would they please be more productive.

Crown Royal XR, why are you disturbing my household this away? I just don't feel right about 'laying' it on the hens to get a bottle of whiskey........don't mean I might not do it though.

Chickens!!! What the hell do they know anywayhow?
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby EllenJ » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:52 pm

Mike wrote:.. .Chickens!!! What the hell do they know anywayhow?

Depends.
Georgia chickens who get their feed from the chickenfeed store don't know nuthin' about good whiskey.
Those whose feed comes from "modern" 'shiners just starve to death.
Those who're lucky enough to live near a real corn-whiskey distiller can tell you a lot about good chicken feed!
When you & D'Veach split that bottle, leave some for us, willya, huh?
=JOHN=
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Unread postby Mike » Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:46 am

[quote="EllenJ When you & D'Veach split that bottle, leave some for us, willya, huh? [/quote]

Looks like they's a move afoot to get me to bring some CR XR to Kanetuck.

Since I can't bring no bourbon that ain't already there, it would be my pleasure to bring this for as many to taste as have an opportunity, leaving a bit for John and the Goddess.

I don't recall seeing if Mr Gillman is going to make it to the Bourbon Festival this year, and I can only be there for Wednesday, but I sure hope he is. I would like to meet him and let him tell us about the CR XR and bend an elbow with us.

Y'all reckon 'my' liquor store owner would be swayed toward a 'discount', if I told him that some famous bourbon folks, including the newest inductee to the Bourbon Hall of Fame, were going to be drinking whiskey from his very store, and that we will 'toast' him if he knocks off a bit, and 'roast' him if he don't.

Now, y'all, I been athinking........what we gone do if we really, really, love this stuff? It costs too much to drink on any regular basis, and I done put as much pressure on the chickens as I dare.

Maybe I could start raising LLamas, or Chinchillas, or Ostriches.......I raised Marijuana once and only got out of that by the skin of my teeth........Momma told the sheriff that we thought we was growing mint, and nobody would dare doubt Momma's word. I have adopted Momma's attitude toward lying.........don't do it unless it's necessary or convenient!
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby gillmang » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:07 am

Mike, I would like to meet you and share impressions of this native whisky, but I arrive Thursday for the weekend, so it seems we won't be able to connect.

Sorry about that but I hope to catch up with Mike Veach during the weekend and he can update me if you did taste this.

For what it is worth, I have tasted a couple of samples of all-Waterloo CR in recent years, some from the 40's, 60's and 80's (separate bottles). The whisky then was not dramatically different from current CR but was deeper in taste and seemed more rye-inclined and also to contain older whisky than is now the case. I believe today the straight (or straight-style, really I mean low-proof) whisky component of CR is 20%. It is supplied mainly I think by American bourbon. Seagram when it owned Four Roses trunked in the whisky from there and may still use that plant as a source. It may also use stocks of aged SW bourbon whiskey it owns, I understand. Even if some straight rye is also added or other types of low-proof whiskey (e.g. Seagram used to make an all-barley low proof whisky for blending), the predominant use of bourbon would lend a bourbon cast to the drink.

In the past though, it had more of a rye whiskey taste, at least to my mind. The use of these last aged Waterloo stocks leaves open some questions. Are the stocks in question not just aged high proof spirit (the 80% or so of CR that isn't straight-style whisky) but also straight-style whisky? My understanding is at one time the plant made everything used in CR and the other Seagram whiskies. (See Michael Jackson's 1987 World Guide To Whisky which suggests this). So the Waterloo element in the new special version of CR might include aged high proof and low proof whiskies (Seagram's blends them before bottling, not before barreling). Alternatively, only aged Waterloo high proof whiskies might be available for this special version. The use of terms such as "creamy" make me think the Waterloo element might be only high-proof stuff which would be vanillin and sweetish from many years in reused wood. This is just conjecture on my part.

The old CR and the current ones were and are excellent whiskies. The new special version can only be better I think because it looks like the stops are being pulled out to create a great blend.

My approach to great blending would be to use more straight whisky in the blend than is commonly done today for Canadian whisky or American (blended) whiskey. I would use a minimum of 50% straight whiskies. You could get some very good blends that way which are very similar to straight whiskey in character but toned down somewhat and made more complex by the various additions. For neat sipping that would appeal to many. We must remember that bonded whiskey and other straight whiskey originally was meant for cutting in highballs and cocktails.

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Unread postby Mike » Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:59 am

gillmang wrote:
The old CR and the current ones were and are excellent whiskies. The new special version can only be better I think because it looks like the stops are being pulled out to create a great blend.

Gary


Well, that is enough for met to take the leap, Gary. Mike Veach and I will see that a drap is set back for you to taste.

Now, to pay for this........the last thing I need around here is more animals...............guess I can sell my crawling tractor...........nope, Barleycorn ran that in the lake last month.........well, there is my marble collection!
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby gillmang » Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:46 pm

Thank you Mike, that is most kind.

I'll keep looking here for it.

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Unread postby cowdery » Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:53 am

I have received some of the press materials on the CRXR and I have no reason to doubt it is exactly what it claims to be, which is why I can't see paying $150 for it unless you're a huge Crown Royal fan. I mean, it's exactly what it says it is, which means it's Crown Royal. Nothing against Crown Royal, it's a perfectly good Canadian blended whiskey, but no bottle of Crown Royal is worth $150.
- Chuck Cowdery

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Unread postby gillmang » Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:24 am

Some of the reports I saw suggested there is 50 year old whisky in the bottle. If that is so the character might be different from regular CR. Only a taste test will tell. Due to the price, I'd like to taste this first before buying. Maybe the LCBO "tasting tower" will offer it (a booth in some liquor stores which offers a taste of a limited range of wines and spirits for a few dollars or so depending on price).

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Unread postby Mike » Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:37 pm

cowdery wrote:Nothing against Crown Royal, it's a perfectly good Canadian blended whiskey, but no bottle of Crown Royal is worth $150.


Well, the plot, she do thicken a bit don't she? My curiosity is being ginned up a bit here.

If CR XR is a bit different than the regular CR........which is fine whiskey........but by no means exceptional, and puts a foot in new territory, that might make it worth it. There is the gamble.

I do like those whiskies that, by my lights, step over into another realm. I think Pappy 20 does this, and McCallen 15 YO Fine Oak, and Bushmill's 16 YO. I think they begin to blur the lines between some of the whiskey classes (and even wiggle a toe in Cognac waters).

If CR XR does this............a $150 if....... then I certainly want to give it a go. As Barleycorn studiously pointed out to me, there is only one way for me to determine this. But the freight, she ain't cheap!!

If CR XR fails to break any new ground, and is just CR writ large, then I would like to experiment by rubbing some George T Stagg into its pores. Maybe then I would be able to shout as Dr Frankenstein did when the monster moved in the Boris Karloff version of the classic horror film.........IT'S ALIVE, IT'S ALIVE!!!
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
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Unread postby cowdery » Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:11 pm

The two giants of the Canadian whisky industry, Hiram Walker and Seagram's, had two very different philosophies about blending. At Walker, they blended the whiskies immediately after distillation. After aging, what came out of the barrel went into the bottle. At Seagram's, they aged the base and flavouring whiskies separately, only mixing them just prior to bottling.

The point is that exactly what was preserved from Waterloo is unknown. Was it base whisky, flavouring whisky or some of each? Either way, if it is of advanced age, it certainly should contribute something special to the taste, but in the nature of the way Seagram's makes whiskey, CR XR will taste the way the blenders want it to taste, though no doubt they will strive to highlight the unique tastes in their arsenal.

Yes, I know Seagram's is no more and the corporate parent is now Diageo, but it is my understanding that Diageo retained the core of the Seagram's whiskey-making team and the formerly Seagram's Canadian whiskies are still being make the "Seagram's way."
- Chuck Cowdery

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