Vatting American Whiskey

Talk about Tennessee, American and Rye Whiskey here.

Moderator: Squire

Vatting American Whiskey

Unread postby bourbonv » Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:44 pm

For the last couple of years I have grown to really appreciate Gary Gillman's knowledge of the art of Blending. Some recent posts Gary has made shows that others are beginning to appreciate his knowledge as well. I was wondering if Gary would be interested in doing a series of posts here about some of his favorite vattings. Rare Breed and Kentucky Spirit Vatted is a quite nice combination (I just tried it myself). I would like to see some other combinations that he has experimented with to improve some products.

Mike Veach
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Unread postby gillmang » Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:17 pm

Thanks, Mike, and coming from you that's a big compliment!

I'll post various combinations that I recall from the past or make as I go.

Some are quite simple.

One was a cocktail (made in the glass only): Roger's 1970's Yellowstone, a tad Rittenhouse Bonded, a bit more Elmer T. Lee to bulk it out a bit. THis is actually one of J. Fleischmann's recipes from his 1885 blending manual, i.e., to use two bourbons and 1 straight rye (of course he specifies brands of the time but we can use what we have available today). For this blend he uses no spirits (GNS) and advises a very little blending agent (fruit concentrate) but you can leave that out and if the whiskies are good you don't need it.

See, the Lee gives a slight extra sweet that the Yellowstone "needs" but the latter's particular flavor (fruity, smoky) predominates.

The rye just kicks it up a notch.

This is very good, very soft, rich, slightly tangy.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Unread postby bourbonv » Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:34 pm

Gary,
I have the Yellowstone and the Elmer T Lee, but the only younger rye I have on hand is the Old Potrero 18th Century style. Having mixed those three I would say that the Yellowstone is definitely improved with the flavor being a bit more spicey and hot from the Old Potrero (125.1 proof) and the extra age from the Elmer T Lee, but I would say the mixture was not better than the Elmer T Lee by itself. If I do this again I might try Very Old Barton in place of the Elmer T Lee - Same age sweetness (a lot of caramel and vanilla) but not the cost.

Mike Veach
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Unread postby gillmang » Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:59 pm

Mike, good essay, but I think the feisty notes of that particular rye might make the blend go ... uh ... awry. :) If you used, say, ORVW 13 year old rye, it might be much better. In Fleischmann's book, the amount of rye whiskey is only about 10%, the two bourbons are equal in amount (45% each) but even at that level the quality of the rye will be evident. Try it using a rye-recipe bourbon instead of rye whiskey, e.g., had you used Grandad 114 it would have been very good, I am sure.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:44 am

Gary,
I actually had no problem with the rye. It added the right amount of alcohol to the 80 proof Yellowstone and a bit of the spicey flavors needed to liven it up. I think that and different bourbon for the age element would be needed, thus I think I will try it with Very Old Barton.

What do you recommend for a weak flavored wheated bourbon? I have some Rx that needs some help.

Mike Veach
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Unread postby gillmang » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:16 am

I guess it depends too how much of that young rye you added!

For a wheated bourbon like that, I'd marry it to a rye-recipe bourbon like OG 114 or Grandad Bonded. This may be a better example of the logic of blending than my earlier one (which was more an idea-of-the moment although it worked well). That way, you balance out the extremes of each drink. You might leave it at that or add one more whiskey. I often add a bit of Jack Daniel to my blends because it gives them an accent that is interesting. The Jack taste is pungent and a little goes a long way. That hint of maple/licorice often is a good accent in a conventional bourbon mingling.

Instead of Grandad, Buffalo Trace might work well, too, or Bulleit, to modify that Rx. Correlatively, the smoothness of the Rx would deepen and lift up those other whiskeys I mentioned.

I work with as many as 30 or 40 but 3 is enough, try again, you'll start to see the logic and appeal of the process, I think!

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:09 am

Gary,
I am a little doubtful about blending a weak wheated bourbon with a strong flavored rye bourbon. I would think the result would be to simply water down the rye bourbon without adding anything. Maybe I need to get a bottle of Bernheim to try mixing with the Rx.

Mike Veach
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Unread postby gillmang » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:37 am

But the sum may be greater than the parts, since you are starting with two different products, yeasts, etc. Sometimes the rye hit is too strong in some bourbon, for some anyway so that dilution/modification is welcome. If you like the rye hit, add, say, some of that Potrero to OG. It may taste like WR 4-grain. (I'm not kidding).

You could add Bernheim wheat to Rx, yes, but that would dilute it further, which is not necesarily a bad idea (again, the synergies thing..). Maybe add some corn whiskey, too. You could end up with some interesting flavours.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Ariving at "The Vatman's"

Unread postby Stoopsie » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:11 am

Weary from his trek to the frozen north, Canada, a younger looking middle aged man approaches the front door. Stoopsie is worried that despite the long distance that he has traveled the “most revered one” will not see him. Only the aficionados have seen him in recently and they only refer to him as “the Vatman” in hushed tones. Hesitantly he rings the doorbell. It sounds almost like the sound of a wooden mallet pounding on an empty barrel. The door slowly opens and a younger man ushers him in. He motions toward a room lit mostly by candles (unscented of course) and one lone light high overhead. Sitting at a large black table that looks almost like one that is seen in a chemistry class, is smaller, balding thin man still in his prime, surrounded by numerous half full unlabeled bottles of reddish brown looking liquid. After entering the glowing room Stoopsie reaches into his satchel and removes a bottle of 8 year old Walker Deluxe Straight Bourbon Whiskey 86 proof:
Attachments
DCP_3723-a.JPG
DCP_3723-a.JPG (42.52 KiB) Viewed 14588 times
Howie

Some people see the glass as half full, some see half empty, but I prefer to drink straight from the bottle.
User avatar
Stoopsie
Registered User
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:06 am
Location: Laurel, MD

The Rest Of The Story

Unread postby Stoopsie » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:12 am

The younger assistant immediately takes the bottle from his hand. Trying to lighten the mood in the room, Stoopsie with a nervous chuckle says to the assistant “Oh, you must be Jake”. And the “Vatman” does not even look up. Stoopsie hears his wife in his head “Why do you think you are funny? Your dry sense of humor is not humor at all, it is just stupid and it will upset someone one of these days.” This might be one of these days. Stoopsie then says I found this bottle in an older liquor store and when I saw the tax stamp and a price of… The “Vatman” raises his hand to hush him. Stoopsie finishes his story under his breath; for a price of only $9.99. I saw that it was bottled during “The Veatch’s” golden age, bottled in 1972, and I figured that this would be like uncovering a forgotten treasure. But, after tasting it on numerous occasions I found that the nose was flat and without distinction, the body was as thin as heroin addict and the finish was non-exsistent. I was hoping that “The Vatman” could give me a recipe to mingle with this bourbon to give it a fuller and more rounded body. Because when it comes to American whiskey I am a “chubby chaser.” The “Vatman”, never lifting his head from his bottles scribbles a formula on a piece of paper and the assistant stuffs it into Stoopsie’s hand and quickly ushers him out the door and slams it behind him. Stoopsie does not open his sweating hand until he climbs back into his car. But to his dismay, his sweaty hands had made the ink on the paper run and the writing illegible. Being too embarrassed to go back to the door, Stoopsie just drives away.

Now I beseech you Bourbon Enthusiasts help me make this bourbon more palatable. Share with me a formula so I can vat this whiskey to make it what I really wanted in the first place, a gemstone in the rough. Come on give me a hand… Gary aka “The Vatman?”?, Mike? John? Bunghole don’t be a blackhole. Can you help a brother of the corn out?
Howie

Some people see the glass as half full, some see half empty, but I prefer to drink straight from the bottle.
User avatar
Stoopsie
Registered User
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:06 am
Location: Laurel, MD

Unread postby bunghole » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:30 am

Howie,

I think I'd stick with 86 proof and vat equal amounts of Jim Beam Black, and Old Forester.

BAM!

That ought to kick it up a notch.

:arrow: imerl :happy1:
User avatar
bunghole
Registered User
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:42 am
Location: Stuart's Draft, Virginia

Unread postby gillmang » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:33 am

Well, that's a good one. I haven't tasted Walker's bourbon so although never shy to take up a challenge, I'll pass on this one. :)

I would however advance some basic principle that may be helpful.

Go for balance. If you have a bourbon that is too sweet for your palate, blend it in an appropriate proportion with one that is thin and austere. E.g. I find most high-strength Blantons a little dry and edgy for my taste. I have blended it successfully with its stablemate, Elmer T. Lee, which some people find too rich. In fact Buffalo Trace is kind of that balance, but your own version will always be a little (or a lot) different.

This isn't alchemy, nor even science, just common sense. It is the same approach as the people took who first thought to blend cabernet sauvignon and merlot, or who added ketchup, onion and a tomato slice to a hamburger.

I've said it many times: this isn't arcana, it isn't rocket (or much of any) science: it's common sense applied (to be sure) after some experience and reflection.

I like the idea of the wizard's hat, though, it covers the balding pate. :)

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Unread postby gillmang » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:34 am

Just saw Linn's response and a 50/50 of OF and Beam Black sounds great. I don't know the Walker's but adding them to that one (1/3rd each) sounds like a good idea, and you keep a certain integrity staying with the same proof.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Unread postby Strayed » Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:18 am

Howie,

(1) I absolute LOVE the way you've presented this little challenge. I noticed that Linn has already answered (good choices, too, but see below), but I'm disappointed that he didn't comment on your obvious tip of your hat to his (best) writing style. Huzzah to you!! (said John, as he crept out toward the sunset, head tipped to avoid blinding his friends as they look on...)

(2) The problem with finding a suitable spirit to vat with Hiram Walker's Deluxe is the niche it already fills. WD was never designed to be a top shelf bourbon; it's there to fill the gap between flavorful bourbons and blended whiskies. That essentially puts it in the same consumer category as Early Times. A more flavorful bourbon would completely overpower it, so mixing it with Old Forester or Beam Black would do little more than dilute the other two bourbons. On the other hand, there are whiskies that are intended to be "light" flavored. Basil Hayden and Gentleman Jack immediately come to mind. Each of these, however, uses it's lightness to highlight a subtle aspect of their associated brand. Hayden displays a hint of Old Grand Dad's rye "bite" with almost no other flavor at all, while the Gentleman introduces maple smoke with hardly a hint of the rather crude base flavor of JD whiskey. Mixing Walker with Gentleman Jack would produce a whiskey remarkably similar to the current 80-proof Jack Daniel's. Mixing with Basil Hayden would do nothing to improve the Walker, and would obliterate the subtle message of Basil Hayden.

For tradition's sake, you might try pouring your single bottle into a vat where 1792 is being dumped, but that's a story for another time.

It may also be that your bottle of Walker's has lost its flavor over the years. I know, the bottles we have came from the same store in Maryland that yours did, but maybe the seal wasn't as good on yours? Our Walker's Deluxe is, for one thing, about 300% more taste-intense (probably not a good descriptor for even the best Walker's Deluxe) than the current Barton version. It certainly does have a finish, albeit not one to compare with, say, Old Rip or Stagg. Nor with Gentleman Jack for that matter. Like I said, it provides a straight bourbon equivalent to Early Times (or Kessler; or Seven Crown; etc.).

So I believe the best thing you can do with your old bottle of Walker's Deluxe (assuming it's that flat; ours seems drinkable as is) is either to enjoy it on its own intended terms (i.e., use it as the alcohol portion of a mixed drink, instead of vodka or white rum), or consider it merely a stretcher or proof-reducer for something to which you'd otherwise just add water (Stagg, Booker's, etc) and enjoy it that way.
=JOHN= (the "Jaye" part of "L & J dot com")
http://www.ellenjaye.com
User avatar
Strayed
Registered User
 
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:58 am
Location: Ohio-occupied No. Kentucky (aka Cincinnati)

Unread postby gillmang » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:37 am

Now that John has given some background on WD, I'd endorse his suggestion of using it to lessen the proof, but complement the whiskey background, of a very high proof whiskey. It might work with a Booker's or Stagg but I'd use a less costly whiskey. OG 114 would probably be perfect, or say, Heaven Hill BIB. These are whiskeys with a quite particular strong flavor, one I find hard to come to terms with. Mixing them 50/50 with the WD would probably produce a better, smoother-flavoured drink at 100 proof or 93 proof respectively which are nice final sipping proofs for a whiskey. I'd leave it at that or you could add 10%-15% or so Jack Daniel Single Barrel to give a very light maple and licorice accent. Or, to make a high grade 1885 Joseph Fleischman blend, add instead of the Jack a ditto percentage of good rye whiskey (nothing too fancy, the current Wild Turkey rye would be fine). The three-whiskey mingling would I believe produce an enjoyable straight whiskey blend that makes the best use of each drink. In other words, I believe someone who does not favor any of the whiskeys on their own would quite enjoy the mingling.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Next

Return to Non-Bourbon Whiskey

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests